What does "quality" mean to you?
If coffee is promoted as "high quality" (whether as beans or as a drink in a cafe) - what do you interpret that to mean? Good quality beans? Skilled baristas making it? Both?
Would cafe owners charge more for what they consider High Quality coffee? Again, is that because of the skills of the barista you employ or the beans themselves?
Do you think consumers view quality coffee in the same way?
Indulge me here, tis for university.
cheers!
bel
Would cafe owners charge more for what they consider High Quality coffee? Again, is that because of the skills of the barista you employ or the beans themselves?
Do you think consumers view quality coffee in the same way?
Indulge me here, tis for university.
cheers!
bel
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bel Townsend on
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Fab. And I do agree!
Like I said, I do think personal preference has a lot to do with it, though I get what you are saying. Quality is a funny word and depends a great deal on its interpretation. Again, with parallels with the Fine Wine world, to me the supposed 'quality' French wines or champagnes do nothing for me, I much prefer Chilean reds that are under £5 because to me the flavour is better quality. But then, I know nothing about what goes in to producing those different wines - if I did, maybe my perception of the quality would be different. But without that knowledge, my only judge of quality is my personal preference. I am pretty sure the same would apply to coffee as well.
But as to 'X being a fine example of Costa Rican SHB' or something - I understand the concept, but who decides what is a good example? Aren't the cuppers being given too much power here?
My research project is called "Exploring the concepts of Quality and Waste in the Speciality Coffee Industry" - and so far my main problem is actually in defining 'quality' in the first place!!!
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Permalink Reply by Mike on
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The Cuppers are people who are tested to confirm their ablities to taste qualities and taints in the coffee.And If you need and example of quality try the Cup Of Excellence. Or Coffee Review.I get the impression you look at this quality issue like " The Emperors New Clothes" and the cuppers are the people saying how great the robes are.And your the little girl saying the King is nude. If the people like the nescafe, it not coffee they like... but whats leftover after the processing and it hardly coffee. I
Bel Townsend said:Fab. And I do agree!
Like I said, I do think personal preference has a lot to do with it, though I get what you are saying. Quality is a funny word and depends a great deal on its interpretation. Again, with parallels with the Fine Wine world, to me the supposed 'quality' French wines or champagnes do nothing for me, I much prefer Chilean reds that are under £5 because to me the flavour is better quality. But then, I know nothing about what goes in to producing those different wines - if I did, maybe my perception of the quality would be different. But without that knowledge, my only judge of quality is my personal preference. I am pretty sure the same would apply to coffee as well.
But as to 'X being a fine example of Costa Rican SHB' or something - I understand the concept, but who decides what is a good example? Aren't the cuppers being given too much power here?
My research project is called "Exploring the concepts of Quality and Waste in the Speciality Coffee Industry" - and so far my main problem is actually in defining 'quality' in the first place!!!
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Bel Townsend said:Fab. And I do agree!
Like I said, I do think personal preference has a lot to do with it, though I get what you are saying. Quality is a funny word and depends a great deal on its interpretation. Again, with parallels with the Fine Wine world, to me the supposed 'quality' French wines or champagnes do nothing for me, I much prefer Chilean reds that are under £5 because to me the flavour is better quality. But then, I know nothing about what goes in to producing those different wines - if I did, maybe my perception of the quality would be different. But without that knowledge, my only judge of quality is my personal preference. I am pretty sure the same would apply to coffee as well.
I like this wine comparison, and this discussion. The $8 Chilean vs $20 California is really relevant here. To what degree should value be considered? Is a very good $10 Chilean of higher quality than a slightly better $20 California because it delivers more bang for the buck?
Tempting, but I don't think so. Strip off the price tag when you rate the product. I think we should separate out the ideas of value and quality. Makes sense to me, cause I define "good value" as being higher quality for a lower price.
Bel Townsend ALSO said:But as to 'X being a fine example of Costa Rican SHB' or something - I understand the concept, but who decides what is a good example? Aren't the cuppers being given too much power here?
I like this definition of "Specialty Coffee" from Don Holly of SCAA. (So much, in fact, that I've probably posted it before.):
"The Green Coffee Classification Chart produced by SCAA Executive Director, Ted Lingle, years ago clearly defines specialty coffee in the green bean phase: a coffee that has no defects and has a distinctive character in the cup. The grade just below specialty, labeled as "premium," helps to clarify the issue even further. The premium grade also has no primary defects, but does not necessarily evidence distinctive character. This clarification, more than any other, helps start the definition for specialty on the right note. It is not only that the coffee doesn't taste bad; to be considered specialty it must be notably good."
This seems to be a model that repeats itself in many industries. High-quality stuff not only isn't bad, but is unique. It has character and individuality. Even if this is only appreciated by the very knowledgeable consumer, its still relevant.
I guess I feel like the "quality scale" has to be usable by the full spectrum of consumers. If I just want a decent cup of something, I'll pick something different than if its a special occasion. If I really don't care what I'm drinking as long as its cheap and gets the job done, I'll buy something else. I feel like we need to capture this spectrum and use it to guide our customers' decisions.
To me, the cupper is a representative for the highest end consumer. They should have the power, because they are the only ones that are aware of the full quality spectrum. Nice to think a more populist approach could work, but I just don't see how someone with less product awareness could accurately assess where a sample falls on the whole spectrum.
Drink what you like, no matter what it is considered.
Great discussion, Bel. I should have started housework an hour ago...
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One other thing, after a pause to start laundry...
I don't think that every establishment should be serving the highest quality specialty coffee. This is a choice that each cafe owner should make carefully to match their concept and customer. I've been to several good shops that have been around a long time that serve coffee that is just adequate. Tasty, well made, but just coffee. This is ok to me, and I'll go back.
We happen to be taking the high-quality road for our coffees, but have to work carefully to keep value and accessibility. This is at the heart of our concept. We are not as hardcore-traditional as many on here - I do serve a 16 oz to-go cappuccino, chocolate blended coffee drink, and 20oz Caramel Macc. alongside our french pressed Aceh Gayo Mountain. But these choices fit with our concept, and are all built on top quality beans. And our customers are learning. We just added a wildly fruity Yirg to the lineup and they LOVE it. Yay!
I guess to add to what I said before: Drink what you like and serve what you like.
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Brady said:
I guess to add to what I said before: Drink what you like and serve what you like.
Yep, am with you 100% on this one, except I'd add "serve what you like, and what your customers like." And I agree with you about value being a different thing to quality - but sometimes with a lack of product knowledge, 'value'/price is a good gauge. If it costs more,you hope it's better quality. (even if it may not be!)
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some of the stuff i found out from customers about their perceptions of quality is on my blog if anyone is interested.
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Sounds like you have some honest customers. In this place in coffee history.Quality is possible like never before.Technology is coming into play that is taking quality to a whole new level. I was invited to dial in some coffee at a local place with a clover.Coffee that was flat and lacked color came alive at different temps. with good coffees but brought to a new level of possibilities with time and temp control. Shops with PID controllers on espresso machines can take sour to sweet with temp changes.Salty to savory with adjustments. This was not possible a short time ago. Pump profiling is being worked on for machines. With new roasting styles being done by some, tastes never found in coffee are realized. If we believe its all been done we will keep drinking the same way. Oh and not mention what agricultural science could bring the coffee farmer, not just higher yield but higher quality.
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Permalink Reply by Stickman on
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javaqueen said:
I like where this could go. Problem is that coffee is viewed simply as fuel by so many of our customers...Just like there are still drinkers of swilly Zinfandel (sorry if you like it!) looking for a destination instead of a path. The path we're on is a long one.So, I wonder... you know how we equate coffee with fine wine?
Now, there is a bit of difference, but look at how wine is sold.
First they teach you about the wine and then you make your decision as to which one is right for you.
How can that process be further injected into coffee?
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Another big difference - most wine retailers sell a wide spectrum of different qualities and price points. Even your average neighborhood bar will sell everything from PBR to a few imports. I'm not sure this is a problem for us, but it certainly hampers our ability to access, educate, and slowly transition the swill-drinkers.
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Permalink Reply by Pablo Castaneda on
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Hey Guys, I guess this topic is focus for the Barista's world, where I come from is more about a good cup of coffee, we don't really elaborate the cup, still baristas are becoming really popular, the majority want to simply enjoy a good cup of good coffee, not to boost or fuel the day with the caffeine, but to simply have a good time to rest and enjoy the day while you work. Like I said before you need quality in every step, I don't see it as you ONLY need good beans, or good baristas, either you have quality as who you are then the entire process becomes part of this value.
best regards
Pablo
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Permalink Reply by Andres Castro on
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Just few thinks to add. I do agree with the concepts price/quality. This is one way to gauge some good stuff for example with the micro lots that are coming out to auction at the Cup of Excellence contest. However some rare coffees very expensive such as Kopi Luak, Jamaican Blue Montain and sometimes Kona have built their high prices based on concepts such as rareness and limited production.
On the other hand, I do believe that the wine industry has influenced a lot the coffee industry just take a look to the SCAA cupping form. I addition, I think is great to join forces and bring new compatible knowledge from the wine industry to the coffee industry.
Finally, do not forget once again how good quality of water plays a main role in this industry.
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