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Permalink Reply by Brady on September 6, 2009 at 7:33am

To answer your last and main question, no. It is not that simple. You probably already suspected that though...

As I understand it, PID helps you get much better control over the temperature of the water in your boiler. This locks down one of the variables that affect brew water temperature. However, there are several other variables that come into play here - mostly relating to the configuration of the plumbing inside the machine.

You could PID your machine and help reduce the variability that you see to some degree. The amount of control and consistency that you ultimately get will be determined by the design of your particular model, so you might find that you still aren't where you need to be. You could still see dramatic fluctuation in temperature at the group and from group-to-group.

Hopefully someone that has performed this mod on an older (how old are we talking, BTW) NS machine will jump in here and share their experience. Without that knowledge, your result would be hard to predict. I suspect that's why this is usually done to Lineas... their design gives you well-documented positive results, so it isn't a gamble.

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on September 6, 2009 at 12:49pm

Brady said:

To answer your last and main question, no. It is not that simple. You probably already suspected that though...

As I understand it, PID helps you get much better control over the temperature of the water in your boiler. This locks down one of the variables that affect brew water temperature. However, there are several other variables that come into play here - mostly relating to the configuration of the plumbing inside the machine.

You could PID your machine and help reduce the variability that you see to some degree. The amount of control and consistency that you ultimately get will be determined by the design of your particular model, so you might find that you still aren't where you need to be. You could still see dramatic fluctuation in temperature at the group and from group-to-group.

Hopefully someone that has performed this mod on an older (how old are we talking, BTW) NS machine will jump in here and share their experience. Without that knowledge, your result would be hard to predict. I suspect that's why this is usually done to Lineas... their design gives you well-documented positive results, so it isn't a gamble.

It's a 2004 Nuova Simonelli Program Plus VIP.

(say that 5 times fast)

-bry

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Curtis on September 6, 2009 at 5:27pm

Hey Bryan,
The reason for the home machine proliferation is that they are not HX machines, they are single boiler, dual use. Either at steam temp, or at brew temp. That's why the PID has such a positive effect - because it is similar to a Linea in that it is only controlling brew temp when brewing.
HX machines don't particularly benefit from it because the boiler pressure is what regulates the brew temp, in a round about way.
For a home user it generally isn't a big deal as they can set their boiler pressure to optimize brew temp. They are not pulling a lot of shots in a row generally - so that does not come in to play.

Commercial machines are trickier because of usage factors. It may be advantageous to PID your boiler, as it would regulate your steam pressure a lot more consistently, thus creating a more stable brew temp. The problem with stock HX machines is that the boiler uses a pressure stat, which isn't as sensitive as the PID will be. So if you set your pstat at 1.5 bar, it may not kick on until 1.3 bar - meaning the water doesn't heat up as fast in the HX. May not be a problem if you're not super busy, but when it is at a high volume time, the water doesn't stay in the HX as long so it doesn't heat as hot. This could be good if you tend to run hot, bad if you tend to run cold. The main thing is it's just not stable. One shot could be 5 or more degrees hotter than another.
The question of whether or not the PID is worth putting on a HX is what I don't know - you'd be best to as EPNW about that one (or maybe one the more technically minded can answer that for you). I guess if you do it yourself you are in a couple hundred or so. Another (perhaps) option would be to have a second machine just for steaming, and the NS set for optimal brew temp - or some such setup.

When I am thinking through it though, it does seem like it would be helpful even on a HX because it would translate into less fluctuation of temp in general. The thing that may still be a variable is length of time the water actually spends in the HX.

Did you search the home coffee sites?

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on September 7, 2009 at 12:19am

Stephen Curtis said:

Hey Bryan,
The reason for the home machine proliferation is that they are not HX machines, they are single boiler, dual use. Either at steam temp, or at brew temp. That's why the PID has such a positive effect - because it is similar to a Linea in that it is only controlling brew temp when brewing.
HX machines don't particularly benefit from it because the boiler pressure is what regulates the brew temp, in a round about way.
For a home user it generally isn't a big deal as they can set their boiler pressure to optimize brew temp. They are not pulling a lot of shots in a row generally - so that does not come in to play.

Commercial machines are trickier because of usage factors. It may be advantageous to PID your boiler, as it would regulate your steam pressure a lot more consistently, thus creating a more stable brew temp. The problem with stock HX machines is that the boiler uses a pressure stat, which isn't as sensitive as the PID will be. So if you set your pstat at 1.5 bar, it may not kick on until 1.3 bar - meaning the water doesn't heat up as fast in the HX. May not be a problem if you're not super busy, but when it is at a high volume time, the water doesn't stay in the HX as long so it doesn't heat as hot. This could be good if you tend to run hot, bad if you tend to run cold. The main thing is it's just not stable. One shot could be 5 or more degrees hotter than another.
The question of whether or not the PID is worth putting on a HX is what I don't know - you'd be best to as EPNW about that one (or maybe one the more technically minded can answer that for you). I guess if you do it yourself you are in a couple hundred or so. Another (perhaps) option would be to have a second machine just for steaming, and the NS set for optimal brew temp - or some such setup.

When I am thinking through it though, it does seem like it would be helpful even on a HX because it would translate into less fluctuation of temp in general. The thing that may still be a variable is length of time the water actually spends in the HX.

Did you search the home coffee sites?

Yeah, but only a little. I probably should have spent more time on HB than I did, but I figured there probably just wasn't a lot of talk about PID'ing a commercial HX on there. Although, I guess the same principals would apply to a home HX as a commercial HX, just with more volume.

Your answers were pretty much what I was guessing. I think I will give EP a call on Tuesday and see what they think. If it can bring our fluctuation from 5 degrees to even 2 degrees it seems like a very worthwhile purchase. Or I suppose we could just try to find a 2 EE Linea for dirt cheap... haha.

-bry

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