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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on March 12, 2009 at 2:42pm

me too!

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Wray on March 12, 2009 at 3:30pm

Me too...

I think the main thing, to focus on great taste, is a given... so let's throw the cop out answer out the window and get down to the nitty gritty, which you two have already gotten a good start on. I totally go with the flow. Almost all of my "diagnosing" of a shot happens by sight. Using a bottomless PF helps this, I just watch the tiger-striping, when it slows and pales I kill the shot, just like we have all been trained to do.

In my opinion, eventually you just get a feel for it, like you eventually get a feeling for what a pitcher at 155 feels like. As far as training goes, if the barista doesn't yet have that "feel" then they aren't on bar. You get a pattern, a ritual of how hard you settle, how many taps, how convex or not convex your finger is when you distribute the grounds, etc... We all know this because we have all been there.

I think the thing that is important is that each day you bring yourself back to a point of reference. My first few drinks everyday I use a thermometer for milk, I measure the amount of syrup out (we use syrups) and dump it in the bottom of the cup to remember what it looks like and I weigh out whatever we were using for the previous day's weight and see what sort of flavor and extraction I get with the previous day's settings.

Having said that, the part that almost always gets dropped out of that equation is the weighing because there are just too many variables from day to day. Day 6 is going to be totally different then day 7, we know this, so to think that a specific weight is going to carry from day to day to day is incorrect in my opinion. But again, just my opinion...

-bry

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Permalink Reply by John P on March 12, 2009 at 3:50pm

Brian Wray wrote:
"In my opinion, eventually you just get a feel for it, like you eventually get a feeling for what a pitcher at 155 feels like. As far as training goes, if the barista doesn't yet have that "feel" then they aren't on bar. You get a pattern, a ritual of how hard you settle, how many taps, how convex or not convex your finger is when you distribute the grounds, etc... We all know this because we have all been there."

Well said.

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on March 12, 2009 at 8:22pm

indeed well said.

Back to thinking too much, I sitll feel like weighing the dose is important for scientific purposes. Especially for beginning baristas. I think this may be what John meant by it being an exercise. People need to learn the effect of different dose. You can get a good flow by adjusting your grind with a pretty large variance in dose. I'd say ~4g difference can produce a similar looking shot but you will have a drastically different flavor. I'd like to find a way to convey this idea to new-ish folks without melting their brain.

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Permalink Reply by Darren Reynolds on March 12, 2009 at 9:23pm

This is an excellent topic Jesse, I was think about something similar but you beat me to it. When training my baristas, i encourage them to get to know the espresso very well, and focus on consistency. Ultimately when they know the blend well enough, I let them serve it just how they like it, which may be slightly different from my personal preference but it allows them to put their own touch on things and share their intimate knowledge of the blend with the customers.

Like Bryan Wray, we rely on sight as the first line of defense against poor shot quality. All factors, dose, grind, puck density, blend components, etc. all contribute to the physics of the pour itself. I train our folks to look at the behavior of the pour (using small open one-piece double spouts currently), more specifically the proper expansion of the pour from drip to stream to peak extraction and the end of useable extraction occurring when the shot pour begins to recede and change color, etc. I find that maintaing the proper pour behavior also helps address issues of coffee age, proper puck distribution and density, dose consistency, while ensuring optimum extraction.

To sum it up, we've almost thrown out the timer and rely on sight and of course taste to determine quality, AFTER issues related to dose consistency have been addressed. I am a firm believer that the my preffered shots should all look exactly the same: colors, flow, volume, speed, and so on. I go for that and refine from there. Also, as you just mentioned with the +- 4g statement, addressing consistency from a puck density standpoint ( coarser grind or less coffee, just tamp harder - and vice versa) fails to achieve consistent puck cohesion (reaction to pressure) and will not result in a similar looking pour, Hows that for scientific? :P I hope I made sense!

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Permalink Reply by Derek Dyson on March 12, 2009 at 9:31pm

At this point...with this seasons crop and our current espresso blend:

espresso at 5 days after roast
18 grams
Boiler temp at 200 degrees
pulled at 25-29 seconds

This was basically the consensus between myself (the barista/ shop manager) and our roaster along side the owners (both on the plantation and here in the states) and a few others...after about a month of playing with the new crop...of course this could all change if we decide to change a roast profile or the blend percentages as the year goes on.

i think the key is all about controlling variables. When I was on our farm last December I was told by our grower to look closely at the cherry while it was still on the tree....."this" he said "is the best this coffee is ever going to be, you guys can only mess it up from here...the key is to what degree". I was standing with our roaster at the time and I feel that we both really took it to heart. Our situation is a little different than most others because we have our own family farm, roaster and cafe all vertically integrated. Where that comes into play is really back to variables. We have complete control over every aspect of our coffee from seed to cup as we like to say. By the time the coffee gets to me in the Cafe many of the variables have already been standardized.....leaving me the simple task of making sure the machine is clean...the dosing/tamping is consistent.... the grind is set correctly...and that no espresso crosses my counter without meeting our standards.

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Permalink Reply by Darren Reynolds on March 12, 2009 at 9:38pm

Derek Dyson said:

I was told by our grower to look closely at the cherry while it was still on the tree....."this" he said "is the best this coffee is ever going to be, you guys can only mess it up from here...the key is to what degree".

Yes indeed, to what degree. I laugh... at the degree perpetrated by me, but I'm inspired by the fact that our humble task to do the grower justice. thanks for the reminder.

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Permalink Reply by Darren Reynolds on March 12, 2009 at 10:06pm

True. We owe it to those at the other end of the chain, not to mention those along the way, to make their hard work shine.

While I type:

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on March 12, 2009 at 10:19pm

Jesse,

You keep referring back to recording the weight. What exactly is the goal other than to satisfy your personal yearning need for scientific data?

Dial it in. Taste it. Does it taste right? If so, then use those basic "feel" parameters, and don't worry too much about it. Consistency is not based on weight. Consistency is based on taste.

What is consistent quantifiably is not necessarily consistent in terms of cup characteristics. This isn't difficult to understand if you've developed the previously mentioned "feel" at all if only once in your coffee career.

In terms of product cost, it makes a difference, but not so much in terms of product quality.

I'm working with a local chain of about 4 stores lately, and I'm training everyone to dose the same way, and to adjust the grind as needed. Ignore the weight. That's too much to keep track of, and it's really irrelevant anyway when it comes to cup quality (which is what you are selling.. you are not selling a certain weight of coffee.. you are selling a certain level of quality in your coffee).

So, sure, you may geek out with the weights, and you may even weigh your shots to check your consistency. You can even do this exercise with your staff. But the bottom line is that the number itself has very little direct relation to what needs to be paid attention to.

If everyone knows what the flow should look like (or even if they just know how to time a shot), and if they know what the color should look like (or even if they are only able to recognize the color change when the shot should be cut off), and assuming everyone is dosing in a consistent fashion and the cup characteristics are within a certain range, there shouldn't be any problems.

That having been said, weigh to your heart's content, but don't expect to get a whole lot of scientific data about it.

And on that note, to geek out with the rest of you, a little common sense goes a long way. (consider coffee density, roast profile, how much the coffee has to give. For instance, it's pretty well common knowledge that decaf coffee requires a higher dose. (generally)

It's also fairly common knowledge the high-altitude higher density coffees can tend to prefer a so-called "lower dose" (which is actually not the case.. lower in volume, but not in weight). The longer/darker a coffee has been roasted, generally the more you'll need to dose to get what you want out of it.

Like I said. Common sense. I think if you DO end up trying to tie the weight to anything, you'll end up finding that the correlation will vary with the coffee density and/or roast profile.

Stick with visuals, stick with the basics, and focus on the results in terms of taste.

Just my stance.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on March 12, 2009 at 10:21pm

You know what the best way to do that is?

Have them taste it.

Jesse -D-> said:

indeed well said.

Back to thinking too much, I sitll feel like weighing the dose is important for scientific purposes. Especially for beginning baristas. I think this may be what John meant by it being an exercise. People need to learn the effect of different dose. You can get a good flow by adjusting your grind with a pretty large variance in dose. I'd say ~4g difference can produce a similar looking shot but you will have a drastically different flavor. I'd like to find a way to convey this idea to new-ish folks without melting their brain.

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on March 12, 2009 at 10:53pm

Jason Says:
Dial it in. Taste it. Does it taste right? If so, then use those basic "feel" parameters, and don't worry too much about it. Consistency is not based on weight. Consistency is based on taste

Without consitant weight you will never have consistant taste.

My point is that shots will taste "fine" if you follow visual/feel parameters, so a new barista will accept it at just that. But shots may taste BETTER with a different dose.

again Jason:
"That having been said, weigh to your heart's content, but don't expect to get a whole lot of scientific data about it."

the weight IS the data.

one more time from Jason:
"It's also fairly common knowledge the high-altitude higher density coffees can tend to prefer a so-called "lower dose" (which is actually not the case.. lower in volume, but not in weight). The longer/darker a coffee has been roasted, generally the more you'll need to dose to get what you want out of it."

I am talking about the same coffee, at a different place in time. maybe 30 min. later when the door gets propped open and the temperature/humidity changes.

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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on March 12, 2009 at 10:55pm

oh and just to be clear, I'm talking about dose weigth not shot weight

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