Flexibility in dose and flow, or stick by the standards?
Hey everyone, I'd like to start a discussion about dose and flow.
Are you always using say, 14g, of coffee and aiming for it to drip at 7s, cone at 10s, and finish at 30s.......or do you adjust your parameters to achieve the best result for that day?
I am not talking about using different coffees, but the same one. In a live cafe atmosphere the same coffee, made in exactly the same way, will produce a different result at any given moment. How do you approach this?
Are you always using say, 14g, of coffee and aiming for it to drip at 7s, cone at 10s, and finish at 30s.......or do you adjust your parameters to achieve the best result for that day?
I am not talking about using different coffees, but the same one. In a live cafe atmosphere the same coffee, made in exactly the same way, will produce a different result at any given moment. How do you approach this?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lucas Elia on
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Its all about TASTE. Do whatever you have to to get your espresso tasty. Thats all that matters.
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Permalink Reply by Jesse -D-> on
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I agrree, I guess I am talking from more of a mangerial standpoint.
Lucas Elia said:Its all about TASTE. Do whatever you have to to get your espresso tasty. Thats all that matters.
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Spro dawg!
Miro Lomeli said:Are you making spro or drip?
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Permalink Reply by Miro on
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I guess it all depends on a bunch of things. Roast dates, blend, basket size, etc. When im dealing with really fresh spro, i like to pre-infuse for about 2-3 sec, it really does make a diff (in my opinion). I also like to see my spro coming out at like late 7 to early 8. i typically (depending on blend and date) like to kill between anywhere from 21-26secs.
Its all give or take tho. you gotta go with the moment!
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Permalink Reply by John P on
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Jesse,
A few factors come into play and they are much easier to nail if you use the same roaster or if you roast your own. In general I would consider the blend and the roast level and go from there. I tend to dose around 17-20g for most espresso and down to about 15g for a few. I don't tend to do any really bright espresso as the use is really limited to only straight spro or macchiatto and I usually need something
I roast our espresso so I usually have a feel for where things are going to be. I dose by feel, not by weight, and I watch color/flow, and examine puck for the first few shots and then I tweak dose and temp as needed for taste. If I need to attach a number to the espresso as a reference it's easily done. As long as your shots for that particular espresso are consistent in taste, knowing how many grams is just an exercise.
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I disagree with weighing the dose being an exercise. Coffee, and espresso espcially, is science. Without recording exactly what you are doing, down to the letter, improvement will be a much slower process. If we record our "experiments" or experiences then we will have a record of what the cause is to our effect. I have found that after making many many shots my dose only varies .2g, and if I settled to hard or the density of the ground coffee changes then I can feel it. This is beside the point, I believe that if we want to learn then we have to record the things we do.
Thank you all, this is exactly the kind of discussion that I wanted to get going!
John P said:Jesse,
A few factors come into play and they are much easier to nail if you use the same roaster or if you roast your own. In general I would consider the blend and the roast level and go from there. I tend to dose around 17-20g for most espresso and down to about 15g for a few. I don't tend to do any really bright espresso as the use is really limited to only straight spro or macchiatto and I usually need something
I roast our espresso so I usually have a feel for where things are going to be. I dose by feel, not by weight, and I watch color/flow, and examine puck for the first few shots and then I tweak dose and temp as needed for taste. If I need to attach a number to the espresso as a reference it's easily done. As long as your shots for that particular espresso are consistent in taste, knowing how many grams is just an exercise.
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Permalink Reply by Aaron McNany on
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I agree with the taste factor - I'll change ANY parameter to achieve a thick, honey-like shot. We pull triple ristretto shots so I always aim for 21g of espresso and work from there. My shots will start dripping between 7 and 12 seconds and may end between 30 and 45 seconds, depending on color and volume. I obviously can't taste every shot, so I've become good at judging by volume and color.
From a managerial point of view, I think it best to train via color, volume, and taste and then teach what methods to consistently achieve the espresso your cafe offers.
Lucas Elia said:Its all about TASTE. Do whatever you have to to get your espresso tasty. Thats all that matters.
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I am glad that so many people base their parameters on taste, after all that is the most important thing. In my experience shots that take over 35s taste a little burnt. Does this happen to you sometimes Aaron? I have made shots that had the right color flow etc, but then change one of the variables (not the beans), get it tuned in to flow right, and then you get a different taste. Somtimes better, somtimes worse, somtimes just different. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that monitoring flow and color doesn't do the full job. What do you all think?
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Jesse,
being able to consistently dose and worrying about whether it is 16 g or 18 g are two different things. The dose is only relevant as to that espresso at that particular grind at that temp and at that pressure...
If I dose ten in a row and weigh... which I do on occassion, and get readings from 16.9 to 17.3 g, I am satisfied that my dosing is consistent. And unless you are using an SO espresso, your dose will vary slightly because the mix of beans being ground are never going to be exactly the same each time, and even then... I can get all geeked out about exact parameters, but once I establish a reference point I just follow the results rather than dwelling on the details. It does not mean I dont understand the details... I just have moved on to another shot.
If you use weight as a tool to diagnose certain aspects of your shot, that is good, but I do know some, usually home users so this probably does not apply to you.. but it becomes a crutch to them. Create the great result first, follow the taste and examine the numbers, but to paraphrase Bruce Lee, dosing by weight ...is like a finger pointing at the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory ...of the espresso.
So as to your initial question. Remain flexible, because all espresso is not created the same AND you may find that you like the flavor created by both updosing and downdosing the same blend. Do what works best for you. Do what produces happiness in the cup.
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Love this John.
Although being the super geek that I am, I weigh a good 60%-70% of my shots and have not found the inconsitancy that you mentioned as far as blends go. Also, both your posts lead me to believe that you missed the part of my initial post that says that I am talking about one specific blend or coffee and how to get your baristas to get the best out of it everyday, consistantly. All baristas don't share the passion and palate that we have and from a training standpoint telling them that they can change any number of variables and still get a good result is mind boggling for a newbie (and even some with experience).
John P said:Jesse,
being able to consistently dose and worrying about whether it is 16 g or 18 g are two different things. The dose is only relevant as to that espresso at that particular grind at that temp and at that pressure...
If I dose ten in a row and weigh... which I do on occassion, and get readings from 16.9 to 17.3 g, I am satisfied that my dosing is consistent. And unless you are using an SO espresso, your dose will vary slightly because the mix of beans being ground are never going to be exactly the same each time, and even then... I can get all geeked out about exact parameters, but once I establish a reference point I just follow the results rather than dwelling on the details. It does not mean I dont understand the details... I just have moved on to another shot.
If you use weight as a tool to diagnose certain aspects of your shot, that is good, but I do know some, usually home users so this probably does not apply to you.. but it becomes a crutch to them. Create the great result first, follow the taste and examine the numbers, but to paraphrase Bruce Lee, dosing by weight ...is like a finger pointing at the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory ...of the espresso.
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Jesse,
sometimes I think too much!
Jesse -D-> said:Love this John.
Although being the super geek that I am, I weigh a good 60%-70% of my shots and have not found the inconsitancy that you mentioned as far as blends go. Also, both your posts lead me to believe that you missed the part of my initial post that says that I am talking about one specific blend or coffee and how to get your baristas to get the best out of it everyday, consistantly. All baristas don't share the passion and palate that we have and from a training standpoint telling them that they can change any number of variables and still get a good result is mind boggling for a newbie (and even some with experience).
John P said:Jesse,
being able to consistently dose and worrying about whether it is 16 g or 18 g are two different things. The dose is only relevant as to that espresso at that particular grind at that temp and at that pressure...
If I dose ten in a row and weigh... which I do on occassion, and get readings from 16.9 to 17.3 g, I am satisfied that my dosing is consistent. And unless you are using an SO espresso, your dose will vary slightly because the mix of beans being ground are never going to be exactly the same each time, and even then... I can get all geeked out about exact parameters, but once I establish a reference point I just follow the results rather than dwelling on the details. It does not mean I dont understand the details... I just have moved on to another shot.
If you use weight as a tool to diagnose certain aspects of your shot, that is good, but I do know some, usually home users so this probably does not apply to you.. but it becomes a crutch to them. Create the great result first, follow the taste and examine the numbers, but to paraphrase Bruce Lee, dosing by weight ...is like a finger pointing at the moon. Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory ...of the espresso.
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