Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joona Suominen on August 20, 2010 at 10:33am

It's a good machine with probably the best work ergonomics so far. After a painful history with tenosynovitis you really come to appreciate it's joystick for steaming, the locking of the portafilters, it's height and everything in it. Just about everything in that machine is well thought. After the first few minutes I felt like I'd used it all my life.

One pro for the additional groupheads is splitting the dirt with between all the groupheads. It's a godsend for those rush hours when you just don't have the time for proper cleaning.

David Myers said:

So aside from the 4 group question, does anyone have experience with the Simonelli WBC machine? While it's entertaining to look at a battle ship of an espresso machine, I think I am convinced that's it's probably not the best solution.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on August 20, 2010 at 1:08pm

I like the way you think Mike. Levers are in my future for sure. It's takes some practice but a good barista would have no problem getting dialed in to it.
Joe

Mike Sabol said:

Keep your eye out for used 2grp Lineas. Get two of them and pid them yourself. Having the extra machine is peace of mind and will save you overtime/weekend rates if something happens. You could even get a 2grp Linea and then a 2 grp lever machine. Levers make awsome coffee. Pressure profiling without the complicated valving/pump/electronic set up.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on August 20, 2010 at 1:13pm

I would mirror Dr. Johns comment. "WHY".and what for. I think they are about shop Bling. To my way of thinking, the more busy a shop is, the more reason for two 2grp machines. Redundancy is critical where a breakdown is inevitable.

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Permalink Reply by ryan mcdougall on August 20, 2010 at 2:05pm

I don't

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Permalink Reply by Brady on August 20, 2010 at 6:35pm

christopher myers said:

Still trying to make sense of this. Ok, assuming you are a specialty shop, you are grinding to order. It takes, what, 10-20 seconds to grind a double shot (depending on your grinder/how sharp your burrs are)? and 25-30 seconds for the shot to extract. Adding in time for steaming milk, dosing, and tamping, and you're really only physically able to make 1, maybe 1.5 drinks at one time, per worker. It's clearly ridiculous to assume that you will have 4 workers on your machine at a time. So, are you going to have 2 separate grinders, with 2 workers making 2 doppios at the same time, and 2 workers steaming milk at the same time? Plus someone on register? Assuming you're not making food? So are you making enough profit to have 5 workers making coffee? i mean, in order to actually put 4 groups to use at the same time you need 2 workers, am I crazy? And if you actually need that many shots at once then you don't have time to steam milk, so you need another person steaming, right? Seriously, someone explain the logistics to me because I'm starting to feel like a crazy person.

One barista can quite effectively make 2 drinks at once, using two groups. Its actually quite easy once you get the hang of it. Say you get 2 lattes... Grind, dose, & tamp PF #1... leaving the grinder running while tamping, cut off grinder, dose, and tamp PF#2. Simultaneously lock, load, and start both groups - competition style. Steam the milk for both drinks. Cut the shots when complete. Split the milk (again, competition style) and pour. Viola - two drinks in just slightly more time than you'd take to do one. That'll take care of your line to the door in a hurry:).

NOW, buy another grinder and knockbox for the other side of the machine and you can easily double output with one more barista doing the same thing. Two baristas are a little tight on a 3 group, no? This arrangement is great for shops that have baristas take orders then make drinks (instead of having a cashier and a barista).

Does that make sense?

That said... a pair of two-group machines does seem smarter, though a much higher initial investment.

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Permalink Reply by christopher myers on August 25, 2010 at 5:34am

well, Brady, now I feel like a noob, but it's the kind of answer I was hoping for. I can adjust and pull good shots, and I can drop a rosetta just about every time, and I'd never seriously considered competing, so I never really thought to watch competitions, though obviously it's something I should start doing. Clearly, this needs to be the next step in my training.

Anyway, just to be argumentative, if you've got a badass slinging lattes with both barrels, is it possible to be making enough profit to justify having 2 baristas making drinks, one on reg, and possibly another? Plus the extra cost and space for more groupheads, plus the extra cost and space for the extra grinder. Plus then trying to predict at what times it will be busy enough to need this many workers, and then getting one of them to work a half shift so you're not leaking payroll money when it slows down?

Basically the answer seems to me that maybe 4 groups (whether in one four group or 2 2 group form) could be useful sometimes, but personally I'd rather save the counterspace and money for the extra machinery and put it into training baristas to be fast and efficient (also a pitcher rinser!). I'd also put a lot of thought into what configuration will make the barista more efficient. Pitcher rinser, under-counter milk fridge, drink pickup within a few feet of the barista, brewed coffee close enough to the cashier that they can get it instead of the barista.... Then maybe think about the second 2 group.

Brady said:

christopher myers said:

Still trying to make sense of this. Ok, assuming you are a specialty shop, you are grinding to order. It takes, what, 10-20 seconds to grind a double shot (depending on your grinder/how sharp your burrs are)? and 25-30 seconds for the shot to extract. Adding in time for steaming milk, dosing, and tamping, and you're really only physically able to make 1, maybe 1.5 drinks at one time, per worker. It's clearly ridiculous to assume that you will have 4 workers on your machine at a time. So, are you going to have 2 separate grinders, with 2 workers making 2 doppios at the same time, and 2 workers steaming milk at the same time? Plus someone on register? Assuming you're not making food? So are you making enough profit to have 5 workers making coffee? i mean, in order to actually put 4 groups to use at the same time you need 2 workers, am I crazy? And if you actually need that many shots at once then you don't have time to steam milk, so you need another person steaming, right? Seriously, someone explain the logistics to me because I'm starting to feel like a crazy person.

One barista can quite effectively make 2 drinks at once, using two groups. Its actually quite easy once you get the hang of it. Say you get 2 lattes... Grind, dose, & tamp PF #1... leaving the grinder running while tamping, cut off grinder, dose, and tamp PF#2. Simultaneously lock, load, and start both groups - competition style. Steam the milk for both drinks. Cut the shots when complete. Split the milk (again, competition style) and pour. Viola - two drinks in just slightly more time than you'd take to do one. That'll take care of your line to the door in a hurry:).

NOW, buy another grinder and knockbox for the other side of the machine and you can easily double output with one more barista doing the same thing. Two baristas are a little tight on a 3 group, no? This arrangement is great for shops that have baristas take orders then make drinks (instead of having a cashier and a barista).

Does that make sense?

That said... a pair of two-group machines does seem smarter, though a much higher initial investment.

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Permalink Reply by Joseph Robertson on August 25, 2010 at 7:15am

All good thoughts to consider. I'm in a similar stage of being open for almost two years with a new Aurelia. I have pondered all of what you are pondering but a second 2 grp is high on my list. You machine will break down in one form or another and you will be out some machine time and $ in the till. In the case we are discussing here redundancy is critical when you can afford it. Even if it sits in the back room.
Joe

christopher myers said:

well, Brady, now I feel like a noob, but it's the kind of answer I was hoping for. I can adjust and pull good shots, and I can drop a rosetta just about every time, and I'd never seriously considered competing, so I never really thought to watch competitions, though obviously it's something I should start doing. Clearly, this needs to be the next step in my training.

Anyway, just to be argumentative, if you've got a badass slinging lattes with both barrels, is it possible to be making enough profit to justify having 2 baristas making drinks, one on reg, and possibly another? Plus the extra cost and space for more groupheads, plus the extra cost and space for the extra grinder. Plus then trying to predict at what times it will be busy enough to need this many workers, and then getting one of them to work a half shift so you're not leaking payroll money when it slows down?

Basically the answer seems to me that maybe 4 groups (whether in one four group or 2 2 group form) could be useful sometimes, but personally I'd rather save the counterspace and money for the extra machinery and put it into training baristas to be fast and efficient (also a pitcher rinser!). I'd also put a lot of thought into what configuration will make the barista more efficient. Pitcher rinser, under-counter milk fridge, drink pickup within a few feet of the barista, brewed coffee close enough to the cashier that they can get it instead of the barista.... Then maybe think about the second 2 group.

Brady said:

christopher myers said:

Still trying to make sense of this. Ok, assuming you are a specialty shop, you are grinding to order. It takes, what, 10-20 seconds to grind a double shot (depending on your grinder/how sharp your burrs are)? and 25-30 seconds for the shot to extract. Adding in time for steaming milk, dosing, and tamping, and you're really only physically able to make 1, maybe 1.5 drinks at one time, per worker. It's clearly ridiculous to assume that you will have 4 workers on your machine at a time. So, are you going to have 2 separate grinders, with 2 workers making 2 doppios at the same time, and 2 workers steaming milk at the same time? Plus someone on register? Assuming you're not making food? So are you making enough profit to have 5 workers making coffee? i mean, in order to actually put 4 groups to use at the same time you need 2 workers, am I crazy? And if you actually need that many shots at once then you don't have time to steam milk, so you need another person steaming, right? Seriously, someone explain the logistics to me because I'm starting to feel like a crazy person.

One barista can quite effectively make 2 drinks at once, using two groups. Its actually quite easy once you get the hang of it. Say you get 2 lattes... Grind, dose, & tamp PF #1... leaving the grinder running while tamping, cut off grinder, dose, and tamp PF#2. Simultaneously lock, load, and start both groups - competition style. Steam the milk for both drinks. Cut the shots when complete. Split the milk (again, competition style) and pour. Viola - two drinks in just slightly more time than you'd take to do one. That'll take care of your line to the door in a hurry:).

NOW, buy another grinder and knockbox for the other side of the machine and you can easily double output with one more barista doing the same thing. Two baristas are a little tight on a 3 group, no? This arrangement is great for shops that have baristas take orders then make drinks (instead of having a cashier and a barista).

Does that make sense?

That said... a pair of two-group machines does seem smarter, though a much higher initial investment.

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