Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ryan on December 5, 2008 at 2:24am

I find that alot of cafe's in NZ are lax in coffee in general - i find it hard to get a consistent coffee. As for Flat Whites and Lattes - In my experience there is little difference between the two. Perhaps a slightly shorter head on a FW, but all in all, I personally would pour both drinks the same way.

I also think that perhaps Lattes would be served in larger cups? or perhaps a glass. But in my career, ive only ever served these two drinks in the same size vessel.

Permalink Reply by Alun Evans on December 5, 2008 at 2:50am

I think Ryan is right. Recently I was fortunate enough to be having a few drinks with UK barista champion Hugo Hercod. He told me that a 6 month trip to NZ back a few years was his inspiration to do coffee the right way. Hmm....I cant help thinking to trips back home over the 10 years I have been away. Generally I do not think the quality of barista has improved, itr may have stagnated or stayed about the same given the volume of new business opening there... this is a perception, and a personal one at that. However I would say I can not say the same about our long tailed cousins accross the ditch, where the reverse seems to be true. I am not sure why this is. I remember some of the great flatwhites I have had anywhere were from cafes in Welly. Someone suggested to me it may be a result of full(ish) employment in NZ? Anyway, its a comment and I am obviously not dissing some of the great barista talent that comes out of NZ... Carl Sara and others have flown the flag really proudly for us.

Anyway I think you are right on the flatwhite. For sure less milk foam on a flat white. Most I have had in NZ are served in the 170/180ml ACF cups. Lattes generally seem to have a slighly higher volume of milk, slightly more foam on the top.

Permalink Reply by Pangi on December 5, 2008 at 5:49am

Hey Ryan, Alun,

I'll echo what you're both stating. I was equally disappointed by most of the coffee I had when I was back. There's no doubt that there is a strong and talented contingent of baristas/cafes. However it seems that for every good cup there are 4-5 to follow that are just subpar.
It's great that NZers have/are embracing coffee on a deeper level however I think many of the businesses are taking advantage of this "trend" by offering a product that is lacking, simply because they can get away with it.

The majority of baristas served a flat white exactly the same as a latte which lead me to believe that it was more a myth/icon than a reality.

Having said that I did go to a couple of places that served me an amazing flat white different from a latte that I felt resembled something along the lines of a cortadito. They served it:
a) In a 150-160ml Nuova Point tulip cup (or something similar) which is pretty small making for about a 45 mls espresso and 105 mls milk.
b) The milk was definitely less foamy/frothy.

Alun Evans said:

I think Ryan is right. Recently I was fortunate enough to be having a few drinks with UK barista champion Hugo Hercod. He told me that a 6 month trip to NZ back a few years was his inspiration to do coffee the right way. Hmm....I cant help thinking to trips back home over the 10 years I have been away. Generally I do not think the quality of barista has improved, itr may have stagnated or stayed about the same given the volume of new business opening there... this is a perception, and a personal one at that. However I would say I can not say the same about our long tailed cousins accross the ditch, where the reverse seems to be true. I am not sure why this is. I remember some of the great flatwhites I have had anywhere were from cafes in Welly. Someone suggested to me it may be a result of full(ish) employment in NZ? Anyway, its a comment and I am obviously not dissing some of the great barista talent that comes out of NZ... Carl Sara and others have flown the flag really proudly for us.

Anyway I think you are right on the flatwhite. For sure less milk foam on a flat white. Most I have had in NZ are served in the 170/180ml ACF cups. Lattes generally seem to have a slighly higher volume of milk, slightly more foam on the top.

Permalink Reply by Alun Evans on December 6, 2008 at 7:00pm

Good points indeed Pangi. I think the current issues as I perceive them in NZ are two fold at the very least. Firstly a number of the "legendary" roasters who pioneered coffee from the early 1990's have sold up and moved on. You cant blame them... especially if they are offered BIG money for their businesses by corporates. As a result I think the mainstream specialty coffee blends that are available are not of the quality they were when I left NZ. There are also a lot of new roasters in the business who have perhaps got in for the wrong reasons. A Passion for coffee is paramount over a passion for profit and making money IMHO.

I think also the same as above applies to the cafe sector. A number ofr cafes were sold in the late 90,s and first 5 years of the 21st century to businessmen/women who wanted a cafe because it was a cool thing to own and was profitable (at the time they brought it as noted above!) Many of these cafes were driven by personalities who moulded these places in their own image. The personality sold up and the cafes slowlt drifted towards mediocrity.

Its funny you know... we as a country were leading the world in coffee. Now I feel that the expatraites returning home, such as Pangi, are the ones who will be injecting new life into a sector that was once so innovative it was scary. I guess rejuvenation is needed then now is as good a time as any to see the fruits of that new blood coming back into the sector

Permalink Reply by Ryan on December 6, 2008 at 8:55pm

I agree fully.

Also, I think there is a distinct lack of training given to Cafe staff, especially Baristas. I think its a misconception to alot of cafe owners etc, that coffee training is secondary to other areas, such as customer service. If a staff member can 'heat' a jug of milk, and slop it into a cup than this is good enough.

Priority seems to be on getting the drink out as fast as possible, serving as many people as possible - which is of course important, but not at the expense of a decent drink.

Also, this lack of training seems to stem from higher up. Ive visited and observed many cafe's still sending out a 'cappuccino' from the 90's, with little milk and a massive separated layer of foam. No care is given to the texture of the milk. Nor is any thought given to how to best use the milk that they do stretch, often 'silo' each cup, rather than using the milk consistently throughout - first cup light as air and full of foam, the last watery and thin.

Well thats my rant!