Extracting a cup of coffee from an espresso machine?

A customer wants to use his espresso machine to pull (make) a 12oz coffee
 The customer does not want to make americano's 
 They want to run the shot till they get a cup (12oz) of coffee.

They have travelled to Europe and tell me this is how everybody is doing it.

My questions 
Is this true?
how would this method affect the espresso machine? pumps etc?
If this is true what type of grind would they be using?

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I have the same machine and experience the same stability.
Love it.
JoeR

Shadow said:
Brady, I did a bit of temperature testing earlier this morning. I don't have any high tech devices to measure temperature and simply use a very accurate digital thermometer/styrofoam cup test, which is good enough for me. The machine I own/use daily is a 2 group NS Aurelia. Here goes...

Ran 10 oz. of water through the group (into a 12 oz. cup), water started out at 199 and remained steady at 200 once the cup had the 10 oz. in it.

Then dumped that and waited approximately 30 seconds and ran 2 oz. into the cup, temp was 198.

Repeated the same thing and the temp was 196.

One last time and got the same temp, 196.

Did the same exact procedure on the 2nd group and had almost identical readings.

I was actually a bit surprised that the temp remained that stable with that much water taken out in a short period of time, but I have always been very pleased with the Aurelia, having used this machine for close to 8 months now.
A true definition of over extraction. When it comes to taste, to each his own. I'm not pushing my pump like that even though I know the SM Auriela could handle it.
JoeR
-- Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Shadow said:
Well I've heard people calling a single shot added to drip being a "red eye" and a double shot added being called a "black eye"... also heard names like a shot in the dark, depth charge, etc.

But this guy likes a quad shot added to what drip takes up the rest of the cup and since he is the only one to order it I let him call it what he wants. I think small things like this allow customers to feel a bit of importance when they step up to order. Like they're a part of something.

So you have to flush 4-6 oz. for the group to be ready? What machine would that be? Or is it pretty typical with most HX machines? That's one thing I really like with the Aurelia, there isn't a need for any flushing to get it just right. Whether I pull 1 double a minute or once an hour it's always spot on the perfect temperature.

Agreed - little things like that are a great touch. One of our regulars orders a similar beverage as "jet fuel".

A couple-ounce flush is standard procedure for HX machines. Often it is to bring the water temp down, purging the superheated water until the "flash boil" stops. I've noticed the same thing about the Aurelia, the big factor is probably grouphead mass - I know it is a relatively HUGE chunk of brass - almost 2x the weight of the one from the MAC2000/Appia and many other HX machines too. Looking to do more work on this in a week or so, and the Aurelia will definitely be one of my test subjects.
Shadow said:
So you have to flush 4-6 oz. for the group to be ready? What machine would that be? Or is it pretty typical with most HX machines? .

Most HX's will benefit from some sort of temperature management, and I need to pull a coupla ounces usually, on my Astoria Argenta SAE II RG, but four to six ounces minimum when I get to her first thing in the morning. It depends on how long I've ignored her as to how much I have to grovel!
Café Crema - a HUUUUGE thing here in Germany. I thought I should add this here, whilst nobody mentioned it. And yes 12 oz. are not rare, and yes... I had to make up to 20 of them a day.
The machine was programmed to flush the water faster through the espresso powder, it was the same grind as for all the other espresso drinks (but a different bean, same used for café latte). It was my first job as barista so I didn't wonder, but now I do: Isn't that even more pressure? Sometimes... It lasted up to a minute (for the biggest size... which could have been nearly 15 oz.
That's how I've seen it at some more places.

Now I am working at another café, where I pull café crema from the machine as well. This time espresso powder for a single shot is used in a double-portafilter for a small or medium cup. For the big one double is used in a double, but is not tampered. :) Yeah... we Germans...
Because I am in a position to change a lot in this coffee shop now, I am concerned about the machine now (because you are concerned too) and wonder if we should change it...

Also, mostly café crema and americano are both offered, but café crema is more in demand. Café crema is served at every coffee shop not owning a filter machine.
Now, that is a serious coffee drinker, eh? It obviously doesn't affect his heart rate... lol
Ceridwen,
What????????????? Do the Germans and Italians ever talk?
Your machine is not using more pressure because your getting a lot of Coffee through the portafilter. The pressure stays at what is was set at. Usually 9 bars or about 275 psi per lug on the portafilter if you have a two lug portafilter.
What you have with those long pulls is an extreme over extraction of the coffee.
I don't care what you call the drink in Germany or any country. It is not making coffee with the tool, (Espresso Machine) the way it was designed to be used.
Use 30 milliliters / 30 sec. pull or shot time as a starting point for espresso extracted closer to what the machine was designed to do. Many here on BX will tell you different on the amount of water per time extracted but you so far from anything that makes sense I thought I would try and get you in the ball park.
If the owner of the shop does not care to use the machine the way it was designed to be used then all that I am saying here is like dust in the wind. If you get the jest.
My next suggestion would be to spend as much time as you can on Barista Exchange. There is more combined and cutting edge coffee knowledge here on Matts site than I have ever seen anywhere.
Sincerely,
Joseph

--
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.

Ceridwen Taylor-Roads said:
Café Crema - a HUUUUGE thing here in Germany. I thought I should add this here, whilst nobody mentioned it. And yes 12 oz. are not rare, and yes... I had to make up to 20 of them a day.
The machine was programmed to flush the water faster through the espresso powder, it was the same grind as for all the other espresso drinks (but a different bean, same used for café latte). It was my first job as barista so I didn't wonder, but now I do: Isn't that even more pressure? Sometimes... It lasted up to a minute (for the biggest size... which could have been nearly 15 oz.
That's how I've seen it at some more places.

Now I am working at another café, where I pull café crema from the machine as well. This time espresso powder for a single shot is used in a double-portafilter for a small or medium cup. For the big one double is used in a double, but is not tampered. :) Yeah... we Germans...
Because I am in a position to change a lot in this coffee shop now, I am concerned about the machine now (because you are concerned too) and wonder if we should change it...

Also, mostly café crema and americano are both offered, but café crema is more in demand. Café crema is served at every coffee shop not owning a filter machine.
Thanks for the information and yes I planned to stay here at Barista Exchange for a while... I feel the spirit of great coffee here :)

Anyway, I am still a fair beginner (when it comes to coffee knowledge), but my boss (who is becoming a good friend now) knows even less and at the moment I am the one getting really excited about all those barista things and want to go real professional and so on. This puts me in the position to suggest things. Right now, we are rewriting the beverage list and it's me explaining all the "official" coffee drinks all the time.

With this machine we've got (great new Carimali KICCO 2) we pull those big coffee amount within the 30 seconds. But I guess... you're right, it's still over extraction. I never liked those coffees, actually I always thought those are disgusting. My inner instincts are working perfectly. But customers seem to like it and they are used to drink it, because the coffee shop, which were there before, served the same. We already lost some customers, because now we've got better coffee (and it's stronger) and people haven't much of a taste. :D We can't really afford to lose more, unless there are new ones... (but that's a marketing thing I am on now - but I wanna do it right)

In a professional barista world, filter coffee is the one to serve at this amounts?
And how do I explain it best to customers and coworkers, that over extraction is not good?

Berlin is actually crowded by Italians and I even speak basic Italian, so yes we talk. But they don't visit coffee shops quite often, because they don't get ristretti here. I already read that ristretto topic, but no conclusion for me.
Ceridwen,
I own my own shop so I often say what is on my mind with out much pre-thought of what I just said. Thus you read something from me like "Do the Germans and Italians ever talk?"
I did not mean to offend anyone in any way. Most espresso machines are made in Italy and come with a lacking set of instructions on how to set it up and turn it on and no where do the manuals say how to make coffee. This has to come from classes or an owner of a coffee shop or mentors that care to produce a great cup.
That said, it is possible to make a fad around almost any product. Coffee, clothes, fashion etc. This is kind of sad when it comes to coffee because we here in the US working in the Specialty Coffee business have been striving to produce a better cup every day. I as a coffee roaster am way behind this effort in a big way. Watching the USA Barista Champion Michael Phillips win the World Cup WBC in London was so much fun. Barista's are behind and the front end driving force of this explosion of great coffee.
Again If I misunderstood your point my most humble apologies go out to you.
PS. this message was supposed to go out to this list right after my last post. The shop got busy and I know you know what that is like. So I am now posting this after a few other comments which I have not read yet.
Very Sincerely,
Joseph

--
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Joseph Robertson said:
Ceridwen,
What????????????? Do the Germans and Italians ever talk?
Your machine is not using more pressure because your getting a lot of Coffee through the portafilter. The pressure stays at what is was set at. Usually 9 bars or about 275 psi per lug on the portafilter if you have a two lug portafilter.
What you have with those long pulls is an extreme over extraction of the coffee.
I don't care what you call the drink in Germany or any country. It is not making coffee with the tool, (Espresso Machine) the way it was designed to be used.
Use 30 milliliters / 30 sec. pull or shot time as a starting point for espresso extracted closer to what the machine was designed to do. Many here on BX will tell you different on the amount of water per time extracted but you so far from anything that makes sense I thought I would try and get you in the ball park.
If the owner of the shop does not care to use the machine the way it was designed to be used then all that I am saying here is like dust in the wind. If you get the jest.
My next suggestion would be to spend as much time as you can on Barista Exchange. There is more combined and cutting edge coffee knowledge here on Matts site than I have ever seen anywhere.
Sincerely,
Joseph

--
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.

Ceridwen Taylor-Roads said:
Café Crema - a HUUUUGE thing here in Germany. I thought I should add this here, whilst nobody mentioned it. And yes 12 oz. are not rare, and yes... I had to make up to 20 of them a day.
The machine was programmed to flush the water faster through the espresso powder, it was the same grind as for all the other espresso drinks (but a different bean, same used for café latte). It was my first job as barista so I didn't wonder, but now I do: Isn't that even more pressure? Sometimes... It lasted up to a minute (for the biggest size... which could have been nearly 15 oz.
That's how I've seen it at some more places.

Now I am working at another café, where I pull café crema from the machine as well. This time espresso powder for a single shot is used in a double-portafilter for a small or medium cup. For the big one double is used in a double, but is not tampered. :) Yeah... we Germans...
Because I am in a position to change a lot in this coffee shop now, I am concerned about the machine now (because you are concerned too) and wonder if we should change it...

Also, mostly café crema and americano are both offered, but café crema is more in demand. Café crema is served at every coffee shop not owning a filter machine.
I recommend you do what you do, and stand firm. If you don't normally do that as a drink, don't. If you have a reasonable option, or something you know to be better, or more in line with what they are asking for, recommend it. Make it for them with cost the first time to show them. Earn the customer, always. (If you can.) And half the people who say they know how they do it in Europe have really never been.
Joseph Robertson said:
Ceridwen,
What????????????? Do the Germans and Italians ever talk?
What you have with those long pulls is an extreme over extraction of the coffee.
I don't care what you call the drink in Germany or any country. It is not making coffee with the tool, (Espresso Machine) the way it was designed to be used.


Remember what happened the last time Germans got chummy with Italians!


I spend a bit of time in Germany, and the Cafe Crema is pretty darned popular. Even visiting one of my mom's eighty-plus-year-old friends in a kleine stadt bei Ulm und Stuttgart, she had a lil super-auto-ish toy that she insisted I have a crema from. I think I quaffed it with the appropriate German Kaffe Klatch appreciation on my face! Yeah, it's horribly over-extracted, but if you stop serving cremas in Germany, you can close up shop. I'd be like Starbucks not serving flavoured lowfat lattes.

OTOH, most of the small shops I would go to in the morning, (trying to escape my auntie's attempts at coffee, last time I was there, it was to take mom & dad on a trip down memory lane) before taking my moms off to some other cherished memory, had no idea what a to-go cup was.
Well To-Go cups are standard now, but the rest you said is absolutely true. (Even the getting chummy part, so we don't wanna get too close again! Maybe that's why we've got this drinking mess.)
Anyway, it's interesting to read the popularity of cremas from another perspective like yours... It sure is important for a shop's income here. Customers loooove this stuff. So I'd say I keep an eye on the machine and if it breaks down I'll tell ya and blame the customers and their bad taste. I would guess, the (Italian) Carimali can do a lot of over extracted coffee hells, so in the end... these hells are made by yet another Italian-German liaison.
If I ever had a coffee shop, café crema wouldn't be on my list.

Chris said:
Joseph Robertson said:
Ceridwen,
What????????????? Do the Germans and Italians ever talk?
What you have with those long pulls is an extreme over extraction of the coffee.
I don't care what you call the drink in Germany or any country. It is not making coffee with the tool, (Espresso Machine) the way it was designed to be used.


Remember what happened the last time Germans got chummy with Italians!


I spend a bit of time in Germany, and the Cafe Crema is pretty darned popular. Even visiting one of my mom's eighty-plus-year-old friends in a kleine stadt bei Ulm und Stuttgart, she had a lil super-auto-ish toy that she insisted I have a crema from. I think I quaffed it with the appropriate German Kaffe Klatch appreciation on my face! Yeah, it's horribly over-extracted, but if you stop serving cremas in Germany, you can close up shop. I'd be like Starbucks not serving flavoured lowfat lattes.

OTOH, most of the small shops I would go to in the morning, (trying to escape my auntie's attempts at coffee, last time I was there, it was to take mom & dad on a trip down memory lane) before taking my moms off to some other cherished memory, had no idea what a to-go cup was.

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