Charging more for soy?
Does your organic coffeehouse charge more for soy? Why?
There seems to be a rather unfair punishment for customers ordering soy that's based more on what the market will bear than on actual cost ratios -- that is, assuming the cafe is using the healthiest, high-quality organic cow-milk and serving Fair Trade organic coffee. In an area where there's a consistent market for soy drinks, and as demand grows all the time, isn't it time we adjust prices to reflect its standing? Why, when the difference in cost couldn't possibly amount to more than a few cents per serving, is the industry norm to inflict a mark-up of $.50, regardless of drink size?
I'm not a manager in the cafe I work at... I don't crunch the numbers myself. I just know that we don't charge any more for soy than for cow, and that as a soy-drinker (admittedly spoiled by my endless free drinks at work) I always feel a little ripped when I encounter the soy-tax...
There seems to be a rather unfair punishment for customers ordering soy that's based more on what the market will bear than on actual cost ratios -- that is, assuming the cafe is using the healthiest, high-quality organic cow-milk and serving Fair Trade organic coffee. In an area where there's a consistent market for soy drinks, and as demand grows all the time, isn't it time we adjust prices to reflect its standing? Why, when the difference in cost couldn't possibly amount to more than a few cents per serving, is the industry norm to inflict a mark-up of $.50, regardless of drink size?
I'm not a manager in the cafe I work at... I don't crunch the numbers myself. I just know that we don't charge any more for soy than for cow, and that as a soy-drinker (admittedly spoiled by my endless free drinks at work) I always feel a little ripped when I encounter the soy-tax...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Haeger on
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You beat me to it. (hi-5)
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Punishment for who? Think of it as "retribution" for the barista who has to froth it in a different pitcher, and break the normal flow of things. It also takes extra storage, and potentially extra shipping. It's not a standard ingredient, but rather, a modification that has become commonplace.
"I want" is far different from "I deserve".
Shops offer soy. They have a right to charge what they think is fair. Just be happy that soy is available practically everywhere. If you don't like what they charge, talk to the owner/manager about it, or skip all that and go somewhere else.
It's far from "punishment". It's just business.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on
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I'll take Jeff Kearney's example as an example:
If we can agree that soy costs two cents more per ounce than milk and that in a 12z drink, we'll use ten ounces of soy, then the raw cost to the shop in question is $ .20 (twenty cents).
If we then take the standard foodservice metric of 30% (where the cost of your ingredients is 30% of the retail price), then we would need to multiply that twenty cents by about 3.5 times. This gives us an appropriate price of seventy cents.
Considering that many shops are only charging fifty cents for soy - including the much larger 16 and 20 ounce drinks, you soy drinkers are getting an absolute bargain. Even at fifty cents, the average shop is eating the cost of your soy and losing money in the process.
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I <3 Jay
Jay Caragay said:I'll take Jeff Kearney's example as an example:
If we can agree that soy costs two cents more per ounce than milk and that in a 12z drink, we'll use ten ounces of soy, then the raw cost to the shop in question is $ .20 (twenty cents).
If we then take the standard foodservice metric of 30% (where the cost of your ingredients is 30% of the retail price), then we would need to multiply that twenty cents by about 3.5 times. This gives us an appropriate price of seventy cents.
Considering that many shops are only charging fifty cents for soy - including the much larger 16 and 20 ounce drinks, you soy drinkers are getting an absolute bargain. Even at fifty cents, the average shop is eating the cost of your soy and losing money in the process.
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Permalink Reply by soysucker on
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Haeger, you're a hater. Using your post as a foundation, let's just clear the air a little for all soy-bashers:
As an expert on the healthiness of soy, perhaps you also realize that for no human on earth is cow's milk a "requirement," and that espresso itself is "a modification that has become commonplace."
How can you be so staunch and nit-picky about these luxury items? Time to evolve, my friend. Demand is what it is, the winds of change are a-blowin', and if you don't know how to steam soy by now -- well, I'd say don't quit your day job, but in this case it's probably "time to redouble your efforts in your night job."
Profits over people is the American way; we see it every day, it's the cost of all our "freedoms," we can accept that. A cafe humbly recouping costs where it must is also understandable -- available effects costs. Gettin' all aggro because an exponentially growing number of customers "break" your "normal flow of things" sounds more like a problem with your inflexible ideas of "normal." 60 years ago, I suppose you'd refuse to serve a man without a hat. 30 years ago you would scarcely have known what a latte is, cow or otherwise. And now -- sweet fancy moses! These wackos expect us to steam the milk of a bean??? Head for the hills!
Charge what you want while you can; with a 'tude like that, clearly you're not in the business of pleasing customers. Someday government subsidies will be more evenly distributed and cost differentials will reflect sustainability over the power of lobbies, and then maybe all customers will be welcome in your cafe. In the meantime, I suggest you take a look at what the FDA's not telling you about pus.
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soysucker said:
That's quite a string of assumptions you've made, there. I am in no way a hater. Dairy, believe it or not, IS the ingredient for the drinks we are borrowing from another culture. Replacing it, in fact, IS a modification of the traditional recipe.Haeger, you're a hater. Using your post as a foundation, let's just clear the air a little for all soy-bashers:
As an expert on the healthiness of soy, perhaps you also realize that for no human on earth is cow's milk a "requirement," and that espresso itself is "a modification that has become commonplace."
How can you be so staunch and nit-picky about these luxury items? Time to evolve, my friend. Demand is what it is, the winds of change are a-blowin', and if you don't know how to steam soy by now -- well, I'd say don't quit your day job, but in this case it's probably "time to redouble your efforts in your night job."
Profits over people is the American way; we see it every day, it's the cost of all our "freedoms," we can accept that. A cafe humbly recouping costs where it must is also understandable -- available effects costs. Gettin' all aggro because an exponentially growing number of customers "break" your "normal flow of things" sounds more like a problem with your inflexible ideas of "normal." 60 years ago, I suppose you'd refuse to serve a man without a hat. 30 years ago you would scarcely have known what a latte is, cow or otherwise. And now -- sweet fancy moses! These wackos expect us to steam the milk of a bean??? Head for the hills!
Charge what you want while you can; with a 'tude like that, clearly you're not in the business of pleasing customers. Someday government subsidies will be more evenly distributed and cost differentials will reflect sustainability over the power of lobbies, and then maybe all customers will be welcome in your cafe. In the meantime, I suggest you take a look at what the FDA's not telling you about pus.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to accept it. Fact is not rooted in the condition of your belief or acceptance. Apply that statement to every assumption you've made about me above, if you don't mind.
The FDA is hiding a lot of things. A whole lot of things. I have done the research on the evils of dairy, as well as the benefits of dairy. Likewise, I have done the research on the evils of soy along with the benefits. Turns out, soy really is not good for human consumption unless it is fermented. This isn't hatred or bias, this is the truth.
I'm glad you've made a judgment on my ability (or your assumed lack-thereof) to properly froth soy (various brands, no less!), my stance on customer service, or the fact that I somehow ever said, assumed, or otherwise felt that cow's milk (or the lactation of any other mamal) was a necessary part of a human's diet. On that note, I have never once heard of lactation of any plant anywhere on earth. Beans have no milk (in reference to one of your many comments).
Customers can desire soy, and shop-owners can offer it, however, it is not assumed that serving Italian coffee recipes automatically indicates that they also allow alternative modifications to said recipes.
Along that same thread, a shop exists on a profit margin of sold goods. As Jay pointed out, a flat $.50 is a bargain considering the product cost. I think it's strange that you are able to modify a traditional product, and the fact that this modification costs slightly more somehow means you, being one who will always prefer this modification, is being "punished".
Does ALL dairy contain puss? probably not. Does ALL soy contain plant estrogen? yes.
Read in that what you will, but make no assumptions about that which you do not know and has not been stated. (me, other people you've never met, and the like)
I believe a business owner has a right to run their business as they please without someone coming in and telling them they MUST do something differently because a customer wants them to. No such thing. If they are smart, they'll probably adapt to the customer's wishes to stay in business, however, it is no-one's right to mandate anything to them about their business.
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Permalink Reply by Timmateo Dominck on
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Dairy regulations are significantly greater than soy regulations. Stomatic cell counts at every pick-up, regular USDA/FDA inspection of dairy and processing facilities and rigorous precautions taken by processors fearing legal action offer a great deal more oversight than the soy industry faces. Intensive animal tracking and extensive record keeping, especially amongst organic dairymen.
Considering that the bulk of Soy used in food products is being imported from China it is imperative to note that regulatory concerns have been tossed out the window when it comes to soy products. I am three buildings away from a soy milk/tofu processing facility and know their operation well. This year more than 85% of their raw materials are imported from China or Brasil. The food miles alone are staggering, but as a coffee roaster who am I to judge that too harshly.
The alternative is local dairy co-op with lower food miles, a state of the art processing facility with locally engineered and built water treatment facility and one of the largest living wage employers in the county. Most herds are run at a 1:1 acre to cow ratio or greater, low density to say the least, and as a result there are tens of thousands of acres that under organic management plans.
Soy is a requisite alternative for many people who are lactose intolerant, no doubt this is 100% legitimate reason to consume soy. However, suggesting soy is a socially/environmentally responsible choice is a tough sell when the facts are laid on the table. There are irresponsible dairy operations, no arguments there, however if you are taking into consideration set and setting, dairy is a better choice in some regions.
Hemp seed milk is way kinder...
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Jeff Kearney said:Qusetion for all of you... What percentage of lattes/ specialtly beverages are going out of you're shops? As compared to moo juice.
Hi Jeff,
It is currently a small percentage, perhaps 1 or 2%. I go through many gallons of milk in the time it takes me to go through half a gallon. This number was higher a while ago, but some of my "lifestyle" soy drinkers changed back to regular milk. I was surprised to find out how many were choosing soy just because they'd heard it was better for them. Very few had ever actually looked at the label and compared that to their specific health goals.
Soysucker, I'm going to suggest that perhaps you re-read your original post and subsequent replies if you have any question why the responses are coming in with a tone that you don't like.
There are quite a few things on the minds of a coffee shop owner most of the time... punishing a small subset of the customer is not typically in that mix. Please don't assume that the situation in another shop is the same as yours, or judge other owners through that lens.
By the way, I still make a milk version of that iced scooped microfoam and espresso drink about once a week. Thanks.
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Hey Brady,
You know, you're right. I suppose I was feeling somewhat set-upon when languaging the initial post; "punishment" is not the most diplomatic of ways to describe the situation, I admit. I tend to get pretty hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propoganda. I say "significant" because change, and the desire for it, is a necessary component to our overall survival, and concede that it is "idealism" because whatever directions I've taken with my own behavior, I don't and can't expect of anyone else. I never really wanted to end up in debate about the nutritional virtues of soy over cow, though when discussing it even from a purely business standpoint, I guess it was inevitable, considering a business's stance on which among a variety of consumer/customer motivations are deserving of accommodation. (Even though either way, I understand business and bottom lines are generally all about demand, and the potential to recoup costs, and then some. In a perfect world, health would [but does not presently] enter into it.)
I was ignorant of the drastic differences in regional availabilities and costs, and hadn't realized how huge the differences can be for cafes that are strictly, a little bit, or not at all organic. What I realize is that it's a pretty entrenched thing, I guess. My conclusion is that, if a brand new cafe starts out with a certain set of goals and ideals + in a region with the demographics and availabilities to match, anything is possible. For an existing cafe with a long-established set of resources and goals to grapple with soy and other evolutions as they develop is another question, which runs up against conflicting ideologies as well as economics, for which the only antidote seems to be overwhelming customer demand -- which I now realize doesn't yet exist in most places.
At any rate, now I can't help myself... People who switch from cow to soy and then back to cow sound like people who are probably too dependent on the idea of milk as a miracle food to begin with. Neither cow nor soy are perfect foods, although frankly, I'd take plant estrogens (which, contrary to popular myths, have no effect on human male reproductive function or development, and which do not increase the risk of breast or uterine cancer in postmenopausal women, but may in fact actually help curb breast cancer after menopause) over high cholesterol, heart disease, diabetes, etc etc.. But hey, if you happen to be a hairy little four-legged newborn vegan that has to double his/her weight in the first two months of life and then grow to 300 pounds within a year, then maybe cow's milk will match your nutritional needs. As for calcium (in humans), the best sources are neither cow's milk nor soy, but of course green leafy vegetables and legumes; cow's milk and other overly-high-protein elements of an unhealthy diet actually counteract whatever calcium comes along with it (which is why osteoporosis is highest in countries that consume the most milk and meat, like ours).
As far as environmental preservation and responsible use of resources go, kilocalorically there's a ratio of 14:1 for units of fossil fuel energy consumed per unit of milk protein produced, which in the end is not the best protein anyway. Granted, I don't know how that measures up to shipping in soy from overseas, though there are other energy savings to factor in, such as shelf stability. And then there's how the grain fed to cows in the US alone could feed nearly a billion humans, or could pump many billion$ into our economy through export. The acreage set aside for grass-fed cows could also be put to use more responsibly for organic farming. I'm certainly no big fan of goods from China, and yet the USDA logo appears just as prominently on them as it does on Mr. Happy Cow. So when a powerful American industry throws many hundreds of million$ into lobbying, advertising, political contributions, etc, to preserve itself, that's when you can trust th
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"The Soy Latte: bastardization, or evolution?"
I vote "neither". It's an available alternative that several people may have a tendency to prefer.
At most, it's a simple modification. I think "bastardization" is extreme, as is "evolution".
It's just another available choice.
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Soysucker-
Gosh, it reads like you've got a lot of issues surrounding this whole milk/soy thing.
The biggest problem with everything you've written is the hogwash about getting "hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propaganda."
Exactly what is this "industry propaganda" you're whining about? That a business needs to make a profit on its' products in order to stay in business and keep providing product for its' customers and a living for its' employees?
The odd thing is that you've purposely ignored the facts regarding cost and necessary markup in order to hold on to this fanaticism about "industry propaganda" because you're merely upset that any shop would deign to charge more for soy. By Kearney's own numbers and common foodservice metric, a fifty cent upcharge for soy is still a loss for the shop in question.
There's no "propaganda" here about soy costing more. It simply costs more - and not only in terms of cost for the raw product. We're also talking about additional storage and handling costs. Additional refrigeration space - as the presence of soy displaces the ability to store milk in the same space.
There's a cost to everything and people like yourself who wish to ignore the financial realities of business want these small coffee shops to take it in the neck just because? Why? Especially when people like you purposely ignore the fact that shops ARE taking it in the neck - even with a fifty cent charge.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Campbell on
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I am a soy drinker and a cafe owner...I charge more. It costs more...when I'm out, I pay more. Unfortunately, most folks don't know how the heck to steam soy, I do get bummed when I pay more for a really bad drink. Here's the real question... Why does almost everyone I run into...burn the soy?
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