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Ummm... just so we are clear:
NO ONE said they wouldn't sell ground coffee, only that they didn't like it.
Rich you are jumping to a lot of conclusions and placing words where they do not belong. No one said that it had to be a Vario. No one said it had to be a $200 burr grinder. Hell, no one even said it had to be a burr grinder.
2 of our locations are in the 'burbs. It's strange, but in our 'burbs fresh ground still tastes better than pre-ground... hmm? =) Your geographical location shouldn't dictate your approach to education and quality.
-bry
John,
We probably grind 15% of our retail whole bean. I can flat our guarantee some of those customers simply can't afford a burr grinder at this point (surprised some can actually afford coffee!). I'm not turning those people away, regardless of what Schomer may think (and he couldn't succeed on our street with 1/3 oz shots).
Here's where Schomer is right: He's often said that if one is going to do what he does, they have to choose their location accordingly - urban/foodie.
Needless to say, we didn't do that in choosing our space. We're in an uptight 'burb. So flexibility and gaining customer trust is how we have to operate. Once we have them, we can move them toward our ideal. But if we turn them away because they don't have a grinder, it's simply another Yelp review on how precious and pretentious we are. And we have enough of those already, deserving or not.
And I think that applies to a lot more coffeehouses than us.
As far as James goes, I respect him dearly and agree with just about everything the guy has ever said. But it's one thing to offer up a peppermill analogy and another to watch revenue walk out the door because our recommended peppermills are $200. Our customers certainly get the analogy. We're ok letting them decide how important that is to them.
John P said:Rich,
As James Hoffman wrote (on a thread you participated in) in his blog,"A couple of people seemed borderline outraged at the suggestion that they actually had to grind their coffee just before brewing to get a fresh cup. I asked if they had a pepper mill. They said yes. I asked if they used it and if they considered it worthwhile. They said they did, and I tried not to flog a dead horse."
James nailed a perfect analogy.
We rarely have anyone ask if we have ground coffee. I think I've had maybe three people ask this year, and two of them bought grinders on the spot. The third came back a couple of days later and said they were borrowing a grinder from their sister because they had to throw away the coffee they bought from another local shop.
As I wrote on my blog two weeks ago, "...Coffee should always be sold fresh-roasted, and whole bean. Quality is not an inconvenience."
I say, look to the heavens with demitasse on outstretched hand and as the light glistens off of your rusted chiffon crema, ask WWSD? "What Would Schomer Do?" - Whole bean only, of course.
and selling whole bean only is quite different from "refusing to grind".
John P said:and selling whole bean only is quite different from "refusing to grind".
Definitely an important distinction, I completely agree with stocking whole bean ONLY. Grinding at point of sale is, IMO, sometimes a necessary evil. But grinding BEFORE point of sale is ludicrous if you care anything about quality.
John P said:and selling whole bean only is quite different from "refusing to grind".
Definitely an important distinction, I completely agree with stocking whole bean ONLY. Grinding at point of sale is, IMO, sometimes a necessary evil. But grinding BEFORE point of sale is ludicrous if you care anything about quality.
I am more saying that "refuse" has a negative connotation. How about, "No, we don't grind our coffee to sell. If you don't have a grinder, I can sell you one, recommend one, or you can borrow one. We want our coffee to be the best it can be when it leaves our store, and whole bean is something we can take pride in. We care too much about our customers to do otherwise." And time after time after time everyone comes back or makes arrangements. If we care enough to maintain our principles, our customers get it, and love us for it. It is these kinds of decisions that build and solidify our base. Please excuse any rambling. Just returned from surgery and I am a little loopy.
Adam Wilson said:John P said:and selling whole bean only is quite different from "refusing to grind".
Definitely an important distinction, I completely agree with stocking whole bean ONLY. Grinding at point of sale is, IMO, sometimes a necessary evil. But grinding BEFORE point of sale is ludicrous if you care anything about quality.
Bryan Wray said:Ummm... just so we are clear:
NO ONE said they wouldn't sell ground coffee, only that they didn't like it.
It was clearly stated that someone wanted to create that rule.
Bryan Wray said:Rich you are jumping to a lot of conclusions and placing words where they do not belong. No one said that it had to be a Vario. No one said it had to be a $200 burr grinder. Hell, no one even said it had to be a burr grinder.
True that nobody said that specifically, but if one is going to be "purist" it's not a major leap to say no to blades. Hell, we won't recommend blades if someone is using a press pot as their primary brew method.
As far as everything else you've said, that's nothing different than what we do here, except that we don't stock electric grinders. I'll match our staff's conversations on coffee with anyone from downtown. Or your shop.
Bryan Wray said:2 of our locations are in the 'burbs. It's strange, but in our 'burbs fresh ground still tastes better than pre-ground... hmm? =) Your geographical location shouldn't dictate your approach to education and quality.
-bry
Your snarkiness is showing. If you were paying attention, I never claimed it would taste otherwise.
FWIW, we also do a farmers market downtown each week. All Clever pourovers for $3 per 10oz cup. Night and day the amount of ready acceptance we get at the market compared to the 'burbs. And the market condiments are goat's milk and agave syrup. Both of which would be considered subversive communist plots at our home base.
One's geographical location shouldn't matter regarding training and education in a perfect world - we put direct trade coffee on the map here as far as press goes, had a bunch of regional barista competition finalists and a champion, did the town's first jam, did the first free cuppings, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.... but what we can effectively execute and get accepted in our location definitely is impacted by location. Not a doubt in my mind or the minds of any of our staff that we'd have a much easier time of it in the city proper.
I'll end with noting it's a bit disingenuous to imply that suburbs of Vancouver have similar behavioral patterns vis a vis coffee culture as do the suburbs of Pittsburgh.
To be clear. We don't have bulk grinders. We only do espresso and siphon by the cup, so we don't use that type of grinder for us and selling whole bean only is quite different from "refusing to grind". We simply don't do it.
Most places will have things they simply don't do. Whether it's blended drinks, or 20 oz drinks, or flavored drinks... there are many things that a number of places just don't do. It's not about what you don't do, it's about what you do that's important, and WHY.
to paraphrase what Chris Deferio said, "Be proud of what you DO offer and get customers excited about that."
Maybe a better thread is "What things do you get new customers to say YES to?" :)
There is no such thing as a 10oz cappuccino. If ratio is the only thing that matters then I could fill a 30 gallon bath tub with 10 gallons of espresso and 20 gallons of frothy milk and call it a capp. Conversely, a vanilla capp is still a capp, it just has vanilla in it. I had a capp with some muscavado sugar in it yesterday and it was delicious, not at all like push button crap from a gas station. One of our baristas said to me the other day (actually on his first day):
"Imagine you are looking out at a pasture and you see dozens and dozens of black and white cows. Suddenly, something strange catches your eye: a purple cow. Chances are you are going to be immediately drawn to the purple cow and focus only on the purple cow, simply because it's different and fascinating. Something completely new and unknown. Let's strive to be a purple cow."
So... everyday since I have made it my mission to be a purple cow, haha. I explain why pre-grinding is a poor practice (without it being a lecture) to every customer that asks for their beans pre-ground. If that makes me a purple cow, then I'll wear that badge with pride.
-bry
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