starting a cafe from scratch
I'm wondering if any of you have opened your cafe in a building not meant to be one. Mainly: what kind of plumbing and electrical did you need to do, and about how much did it cost you. I'm estimating around 70K for all startup costs (in another discussion I saw someone estimated 100k to startup, but I'm not sure where that number came from unless they were talking about roasting), versus the 140K it would cost to buy the shop we initially wanted. But I don't know anything about the infrastructure stuff. We have the resources to build basic things like counters for free, but we'd have to pay someone to rip up the floor to pipe water and power to the machines, dishwasher, industrial sink etc. Any other things I need to consider in this area?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jared Rutledge on
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we have an open basement in my shop, so all the plumbing (5 colds, 2 hots and 3 drains) was about $1500. the electrical (exit signs, 220v outlet + breaker, and an extra 110v box) was $1000. permits for those ran me close to $1000.
keep in mind i installed the machine, filtration, sinks, etc. myself - the plumber just left the spigots sticking six inches out of the floor and i did the rest.
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Permalink Reply by christopher myers on
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Cool thanks Jared, that's about what I expected.
Jared Rutledge said:we have an open basement in my shop, so all the plumbing (5 colds, 2 hots and 3 drains) was about $1500. the electrical (exit signs, 220v outlet + breaker, and an extra 110v box) was $1000. permits for those ran me close to $1000.
keep in mind i installed the machine, filtration, sinks, etc. myself - the plumber just left the spigots sticking six inches out of the floor and i did the rest.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Caragay on
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Whew, such a multi-faceted question! $70K is a good number, but is it enough for your project? Only you can determine that.
Have you signed the lease? Will the landlord give you Tenant Improvement allowances? Meaning, will they give you money to build out the space to your specifications? Look into that. It's common in restaurant leases, see if your LL will grant that to you. It can be a good way to finance much of your build out.
Talk to multiple contractors and trades. Don't rely on just one source. Get proper drawings and have them give you written estimates. Hold them to it. You'll find wild variances in estimates from different companies. I remember one plumber estimated $9,500 for a job less involved than another plumber who estimated $4,500 for a more complex installation.
We've build four facilities in spaces that were not previously for foodservice. It can be quite involved. Get your local health department involved early on. They will tell you what is required for their code. They can be very helpful. And their requirements will dictate the work you need done and how much your project should cost.
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70K should be enough unless I'm leaving something out. I didn't know about Tenant Improvement Allowances, but I'll definitely look into that. Until recently we were determined to buy a specific business, but it looks like he may sell it before we can get the full amount, so I just started looking into leasing empty spaces. I also hadn't considered the health department requirements. So thanks!
Jay Caragay said:Whew, such a multi-faceted question! $70K is a good number, but is it enough for your project? Only you can determine that.
Have you signed the lease? Will the landlord give you Tenant Improvement allowances? Meaning, will they give you money to build out the space to your specifications? Look into that. It's common in restaurant leases, see if your LL will grant that to you. It can be a good way to finance much of your build out.
Talk to multiple contractors and trades. Don't rely on just one source. Get proper drawings and have them give you written estimates. Hold them to it. You'll find wild variances in estimates from different companies. I remember one plumber estimated $9,500 for a job less involved than another plumber who estimated $4,500 for a more complex installation.
We've build four facilities in spaces that were not previously for foodservice. It can be quite involved. Get your local health department involved early on. They will tell you what is required for their code. They can be very helpful. And their requirements will dictate the work you need done and how much your project should cost.
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Permalink Reply by KA on
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You may want to check with your city regarding zoning for usage of your intended space.
It maybe no issue to have your space changed from say, designated retail to food service, or it could be the city will not allow the change.
You may not even have to deal with zoning, but, it may be something to be very aware of. Particularly in designated historical areas.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Jackson on
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I agree check with all your permit offices, your health inspector your fire Marshall for occupancy purposes. Find out exactly what they require. Find out about bathrooms and what you need as they can be a big expense. Consult somebody that specializes in design like Tom at http://designlayout.com/ then you can start to get bids, approach permit offices etc. Also find out about codes for outdoor seating, music , noise, entertainment anything you plan on doing and ask exactly what the code and rules are. Then you can really start to get an idea if the location is right and how much it will be to open.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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Previous answers have been great, I'll just add a few things.
Figure out exactly what permits you'll need, and the sequence they'll need to be obtained in. Can all work be covered by a single renovation permit? You will need to deal with several different inspectors, and nobody seems to want to tell you what order things need to be done in. If you can find someone that knows the ropes for your area they will be a huge help in determining the order of operations.
Immediately add at least $5k if you are cutting into concrete. Depending on existing stubs you may be able to get away without doing this, but you'll have to do some pretty clever design work. We were in a space that had been a cafe but they'd ripped pretty much everything out. We were able to run water, drain, and electrical through a new front bar wall, side wall, and kitchen wall and avoid cutting concrete, but it was a headache.
Our plumbing and electrical was something in the vicinity of $5-$10k. We spent a considerable amount of our own time designing the plumbing, which meant lots of work with the local plumbing inspector. Several new circuits had to be run, but fortunately the box had enough capacity to handle the load.
Look into what sort of work the LL will allow you to do yourself and what they require licensed contractors to do. Also investigate what sort of materials are required - we had to do all the interior walls with metal studs. Not difficult, but a learning curve for those of us used to working with sticks.
Hopefully things in your space are pretty straightforward - figuring out what the pipes coming out of the concrete, walls, and ceiling actually are can be half the battle. We had a couple of nasty surprises, so be prepared to adapt your plan.
Remember also to have a plan for over-runs. They will happen, and once you start there's really no quitting. If you figured $70k, you'd better plan to be able to go up another $15k.
That $100k certainly did not include roasting, and is a pretty realistic number for a smallish space where you pay people to do the upfit work. It was probably a "we ended up spending $100k" statement too.
Don't forget initial inventory and operating costs until you reach break-even.
Good luck!
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BTW... depending on the space and current business level, I'd bet that the $140k cost of the shop you are considering just covers what the current owner has invested in the space. Or they may be losing their shirt.
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Thanks everyone, great responses. The space I have my eye on now is zoned for retail but will require a public hearing to get the permit to serve food and drinks. I think we can convince them that putting a cafe in this area will only improve it, but who knows how long that will take. It already has handicap access bathrooms but hopefully we can get the TI money for other plumbing/electric and nicer lighting (No fluorescent office lights for us, thanks). Even with all this, starting over will leave us in sooo much less debt it looks like. There's just the risk factor, but hey, if we weren't confident we could draw a crowd, we wouldn't be thinking about this in first place right? Since I mentioned it, this space is on the border of 2 towns, Oakland and Berkeley, and is equidistant from both downtowns, but there is a lot of housing, it's next door to a laundromat (captive audience!), across from a diner and a bar that doesn't serve microbrews (which we would), and an about to be opened pizza shop. Oh it's also one of the main streets, and has lots of parking. So not exactly a bustling heart of downtown place, but I think definite potential. What do you guys think? I guess the question you veterans would ask first is "are the people in the area going to be interested in specialty coffee?" and I would say that a good portion of the neighborhood would be, but I also think that in this area, great coffee will bring the customers to it.
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oops, the last time I said "area" I meant like, the CA bay area, not that specific neighborhood. Just to be clear.
christopher myers said:Thanks everyone, great responses. The space I have my eye on now is zoned for retail but will require a public hearing to get the permit to serve food and drinks. I think we can convince them that putting a cafe in this area will only improve it, but who knows how long that will take. It already has handicap access bathrooms but hopefully we can get the TI money for other plumbing/electric and nicer lighting (No fluorescent office lights for us, thanks). Even with all this, starting over will leave us in sooo much less debt it looks like. There's just the risk factor, but hey, if we weren't confident we could draw a crowd, we wouldn't be thinking about this in first place right? Since I mentioned it, this space is on the border of 2 towns, Oakland and Berkeley, and is equidistant from both downtowns, but there is a lot of housing, it's next door to a laundromat (captive audience!), across from a diner and a bar that doesn't serve microbrews (which we would), and an about to be opened pizza shop. Oh it's also one of the main streets, and has lots of parking. So not exactly a bustling heart of downtown place, but I think definite potential. What do you guys think? I guess the question you veterans would ask first is "are the people in the area going to be interested in specialty coffee?" and I would say that a good portion of the neighborhood would be, but I also think that in this area, great coffee will bring the customers to it.
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Gah! 6-10 months for the city counsil to approve a food permit?!?! Are you like, getting a consensus vote from every sentient being in city limits? Good lord I could move the whole building brick by brick to a food zoned area faster than that.
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Permalink Reply by Marshall Fuss on
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Costs include the time it will take you to get plans and the actual work approved and the hoops your local government people will make you jump through. These vary wildly among locations, even within the same metropolitan area. F'rinstance, Los Angeles is a nightmare, while Pasadena is very reasonable.
I see you are in Oakland. Disregard any time/expense estimates you get from friends outside major metropolitan areas. They might as well be from another planet as far as permitting requirements go.
My first advice would be to hire an architect who is experienced in designing and overseeing the construction of food service businesses in your area. If he/she is on a first name basis with the building and health depts., even better. If he/she isn't, be sure your general contractor is!
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