Kickstarter PID-Controlled Espresso Machine
I'm intrigued by this project. Can any equipment nuts weigh in with their thoughts?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espr...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dustin DeMers on
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Theres a thread over on home barista about this.
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Permalink Reply by Amber Nordvik on
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Ooo, I will search it out! Thanks!
Dustin DeMers said:Theres a thread over on home barista about this.
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Permalink Reply by Keith Eckert on
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We have been following this project (but admittedly still don't know a great deal about it), and think it has great potential. This is certainly aimed at the home market, and the technology they are using isn't necessarily new, but the way they are implementing the technology is.
Rancilio is applying a similar "thermoblock" idea a little differently on XCelsius machines, essentially making each brew group a "thermoblock" controlled by a PID type controller that precisely regulate brew water temperature by heating near temp water to the final brew temp on demand. The ZPM concept is doing the same, only starting with cold water. Would think this would cause performance lag, but the developers claim otherwise.
The Crossland CC1 (home espresso machine) uses preheated brew boiler water to supply the steaming thermoblock, making it one of the better steaming thermoblock machines I have used. The ZPM starts with cold water, so again, not sure how it would compare to an already existing thermoblock enabled steaming mechanism. Time will tell I suppose.
For $200 bucks, you could very well get a fun and quite adequate home espresso machine months or years down the road (and I hope they can pull it off!). But keep in mind, it is a Kickstart funding appeal, so there are no guarantees. My hats off to them!
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Permalink Reply by Scott on
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A lot of technical details left out of the description. Like the pump and how that's controlled with the T-block. Seems that it should need some kind of electronic interaction with the PID controller to work properly. I will say the idea is cool. Mock up looks nice.
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A lot of technical details left out of the description. Like the pump and how that's controlled with the T-block.
Pump is an ulka pump, if I remember correctly, and is DC controlled (not AC variable Voltage), so should give very precise pressure regulation (in theory).
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I would say, however, that I think the desire for this to be produced in the US (yeh!) and hit the $300 target list price is naive. They say they are using mostly off the shelf products to hit the price point. Unless they are desiring to completely sell directly and service directly, it seems unlikely that there would be enough margin for resellers and coffee shops to carry it (perhaps big chain discount stores that only require a slim margin to operate). But then, perhaps I am wrong (which I kind of hope I am). Again my hats off to them.
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To hit that price point with that pump, it will be a sealed brushed motor, and that won't last long - especially with the cycling needed for steam in a T-Block. But maybe they'll prove me wrong.
Hey, I really doubt the price point too. I would venture to guess they are going to be closer to $500+ retail. I will say I am temped to contribute the $200, just to see if I get one.
Keith Eckert said:A lot of technical details left out of the description. Like the pump and how that's controlled with the T-block.
Pump is an ulka pump, if I remember correctly, and is DC controlled (not AC variable Voltage), so should give very precise pressure regulation (in theory).
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Hoeppner on
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I know a few gents that pledged the $200. Seems like pretty low risk for the potential. If you'll lose sleep over losing $200, don't do it. If you can afford to lose it, try it out. I contacted them about the potential of a wholesale account, and they said they're looking at sourcing their manufacturing, as the response is far above what they were expecting. I think they'll be able to do it, but they'll have to make their money in volume, not margin per unit.
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Permalink Reply by Brady on
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I've been watching this for a couple of weeks. I'm skeptical, but a couple of people I know have kicked in.
Two main areas for my skepticism:
1. Agency approval... I wonder if they have the experience to get it done? I wonder if their current configuration meets requirements?
2. Cost. $200 buys you 10 $20 parts... some assembly required. What kind of part is in the $20 wholesale range? A solenoid valve, an Ulka pump, a simple aluminum CNC machined part (maybe?), a very simple painted sheet metal enclosure (no welding), a cheap portafilter assembly with basket, a heating element. Can you accomplish a control for $20? $20 probably covers the cost of an hour of qualified assembly labor. Packaging and literature may come in at $20. Lets add a handful of waterlines and fittings for $20. A heater relay for $20? Heater hi-limit may only be $10, the power cord is probably in that same ballpark. Oops...we're over $200 and that's just the big bits from the bill of materials.
Not to be negative... just skeptical. I've been a product engineer, worked with costed bills of materials, been through the UL approval process, and bought quite a few espresso machine parts. It seems really hard to achieve their target price.
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@ Brady, the whole UL approval thing has got me wondering too. Sounds like they are already pursuing this, but UL testing and certification can take 6-12 months in and of itself (known people who have done this, but never myself). In every case, they have gone well beyond their schedule and budget on this item alone.
I absolutely love how they are completely out of the ideological box on this, and trying to bring a variable temp and pressure machine to the masses. This can only help the specialty coffee industry as more and more people can afford to get a machine capable of user manipulated extraction. I really hope they can pull it off, but the analytic in me feels they bit off a bit too much. Promising such a low price point in the beginning then having to jack it up can be a big deterrent for a project.
Don't want to pass on wrong information, so don't quote me on this, but I read from another source that they are building the computer in a way to allow it to be manipulated (not really open-source per se, but if someone wanted to change it up, they could just rewrite the code, or download someone else's, then upload it to the machine via usb or SD card).
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