Have you guys seen this Liturgy about Coffee? - Barista Exchange2024-03-29T11:06:22Zhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?x=1&id=1688216%3ATopic%3A751170&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhat a fantastic discussion!…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-02:1688216:Comment:7665192010-02-02T05:49:07.185ZAaron Duckworthhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/AaronDuckworth
What a fantastic discussion! I was blogging a couple of weeks ago about how "Christian" coffeehouses usually annoy the heck out of me because it is nearly always some of the worst coffee in town! Chris DeMarse asked about how functionally speaking, we can bring our faith to that cafe with us. I have been thinking quite a bit about exactly this over the past month or so so I'll throw out a couple of ideas. A) we have to be excellent in what we do (Chris Cockrell correctly cited Colossians 3).…
What a fantastic discussion! I was blogging a couple of weeks ago about how "Christian" coffeehouses usually annoy the heck out of me because it is nearly always some of the worst coffee in town! Chris DeMarse asked about how functionally speaking, we can bring our faith to that cafe with us. I have been thinking quite a bit about exactly this over the past month or so so I'll throw out a couple of ideas. A) we have to be excellent in what we do (Chris Cockrell correctly cited Colossians 3). Whether is coffee, sporting goods, accounting or flowers, especially if we're going to bring God into it, it needs to be the best that it can be B) Jesus nearly always used common, everyday things to describe spiritual things. Can we not do the same thing with coffee without sounding cheesy? How many baristas do we know that are almost offensive in how they dispense their knowledge even though they are right? How many Christians do we know who do the same thing? The specifics are different, but the principle is the same.<br />
<br />
How quickly we judge the double shot in a large cup guy who cleans out your half and half pitcher and has the nerve to ask you to refill it (for the third day in a row), yet we turn around and gossip about him, bringing judgment on ourselves! Are we not worse then he twice over for judging then gossiping? I think that there are a GREAT many ways to be relevant to culture in a coffee setting. I've actually got something cooking that deals with exactly this that I am a little reluctant to post just yet as I'm still praying my way through it. I will say this though, my church just ordered a paddle grouped FB80 for a cafe that we are opening later this summer as part of a large campus expansion and we have no plans to keep it all to ourselves.<br />
<br />
If anyone is interested in that specific project, I wrote about it <a href="http://coffeewithaduck.com/blog/2010/01/13/back-in-the-saddle/" target="_blank">on my blog</a> but won't bore everyone here with it. And if you're REALLY interested, I just started a Google Wave about it with some of the Kansas City coffee peeps. If you want in on that conversation, again, let me know as I have several invites to spare. I like what you say about gro…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-02:1688216:Comment:7664682010-02-02T04:33:36.729ZChris Hootonhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisHooton
I like what you say about growth, and that is where God tailors our experiences. I come from a tradition that doesn't have much to do with liturgy. I plateaued in my spiritual growth regarding prayer - I got stuck - with only extemporaneous prayer. Liturgy and exploring other forms of prayer has injected new life into my practices of prayer.<br />
<br />
Blessings on you and your spiritual journey.<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:…</cite>
I like what you say about growth, and that is where God tailors our experiences. I come from a tradition that doesn't have much to do with liturgy. I plateaued in my spiritual growth regarding prayer - I got stuck - with only extemporaneous prayer. Liturgy and exploring other forms of prayer has injected new life into my practices of prayer.<br />
<br />
Blessings on you and your spiritual journey.<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A766454&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment766454"><div>I'm not sure I've seen a "Christian" Coffee shop. I would like to . As far as praying the Lords Prayer, Didn't Jesus say this to his apostiles? At that time, the Kingdom hadn't come yet. For us today, seeing as how the Kingdom is now come, how can one keep praying for something that has already come to pass? The items in that prayer such as recognizing from whom it is we recieve our daily bread and on forgiveness are reminders that without Gods mercy and love, we would have nothing.<br/> <br/>
I find that simply repeating something pre-written keeps me from the growth expected of me in developing deeper more meaningful, personal prayer. As scripture is the owners manual and pattern for a Christian life, I look to it for patterns for my own personal prayer life as well. It guides my life and in it, my walk in life (work as well). Assripture teaches, I strive to live at peace with all man as best I can. Christ-like, Kindness, love for mankind - not for the sin they enjoy.<br/>
<br/>
Good discusion.<br/>
<br/>
Chris<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Chris Hooton said:<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A766379&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment766379"><div>Chris,<br/><br/>You are absolutely right, snip</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> I'm not sure I've seen a "Chr…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-02:1688216:Comment:7664542010-02-02T04:19:58.639ZChris Cockrellhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisCockrell
I'm not sure I've seen a "Christian" Coffee shop. I would like to . As far as praying the Lords Prayer, Didn't Jesus say this to his apostiles? At that time, the Kingdom hadn't come yet. For us today, seeing as how the Kingdom is now come, how can one keep praying for something that has already come to pass? The items in that prayer such as recognizing from whom it is we recieve our daily bread and on forgiveness are reminders that without Gods mercy and love, we would have nothing.<br />
<br />
I find…
I'm not sure I've seen a "Christian" Coffee shop. I would like to . As far as praying the Lords Prayer, Didn't Jesus say this to his apostiles? At that time, the Kingdom hadn't come yet. For us today, seeing as how the Kingdom is now come, how can one keep praying for something that has already come to pass? The items in that prayer such as recognizing from whom it is we recieve our daily bread and on forgiveness are reminders that without Gods mercy and love, we would have nothing.<br />
<br />
I find that simply repeating something pre-written keeps me from the growth expected of me in developing deeper more meaningful, personal prayer. As scripture holds the path to, and is the owners manual and pattern for a Christian life, I look to it for patterns for my own personal prayer life as well. It guides my life and in it, my walk in life (work as well). Assripture teaches, I strive to live at peace with all man as best I can. Christ-like, Kindness, love for mankind - not for the sin they enjoy.<br />
<br />
Having only a roasting business now, I have limited contact with customers of the drinking kind...they come to the market and buy and leave until next week. I do my best to share kindness to them and a quality product...they keep coming back and perhaps I can be an influence on them for the better...coffee being what brought us together in the first place.<br />
<br />
Good discusion.<br />
<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
<br />
Chris Hooton said:<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A766379&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment766379"><div>Chris,<br/><br/>You are absolutely right, snip</div>
</blockquote> Chris,
You are absolutely ri…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-02:1688216:Comment:7663792010-02-02T03:33:31.908ZChris Hootonhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisHooton
Chris,<br />
<br />
You are absolutely right, if being a Christian in business degrades to making a spectacle out expressions of faith, then the faith and the shop would be denigrated. Even "Christian" coffee shops rub me the wrong way. Yet, as a personal exercise it can help me integrate intimacy with God into my daily work routine. I am inspired by the ideas of "Practicing the Presence of God" offered by a 17 century cook in a monastery known as…
Chris,<br />
<br />
You are absolutely right, if being a Christian in business degrades to making a spectacle out expressions of faith, then the faith and the shop would be denigrated. Even "Christian" coffee shops rub me the wrong way. Yet, as a personal exercise it can help me integrate intimacy with God into my daily work routine. I am inspired by the ideas of "Practicing the Presence of God" offered by a 17 century cook in a monastery known as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Lawrence" target="_blank">Brother Lawrence</a>.<br />
<br />
As far as praying scripture goes, probably the most common form of praying the scripture is praying what is known as the "Lord's prayer" (Matthew 6:9-13). Also, the psalms are really the prayer book of Israel and the church. I have come to find that praying them powerful, though it took some time to go from reading them to praying with my heart. That is the difference between "meaningless repetition" and praying. We impart meaning to our praying of scripture as our hearts engage with the words and ideas. Our belief that scripture is the inspired word of God also makes praying scripture meaningful.<br />
<br />
A thought that often captures me when praying is that the Holy Spirit is intimately involved. I find prayer my prayer at its best when I have an ear open to the Spirit and allow the Spirit to talk to God's self through me - as I express the heart of God. I suspect that is what it means to pray in Jesus' name - praying in line with his heart. When another person writes a prayer that is pregnant with the things close to the heart of God, they have the ability at times to express the longings of my heart with words my soul may be grasping for. That is why they can be powerful, but that power is only to the extent that my own soul is engaged in the prayer.<br />
<br />
Does that make any sense? Have I expressed myself so as to be understood?<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A766323&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment766323"><div>I don't think the passage is cautioning those utilizing "silent prayer", only those seeking attention from man - they have their reward. Please tell us how pre-written prayer can be an expression of your heart. Why do you "pray scripture" and how does that agree with what scripture says about the purpose and use of prayer??? I'm sure many out there are familur with this.<br/> <br/>
All this seems counter productive in the every challenging task of getting customers into your shop to buy coffee given the make up of the "general" public....<br/>
<br/>
Chris<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<cite>Chris Hooton said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?xg_source=activity&id=1688216%3ATopic%3A751170&page=4#1688216Comment765204"><div>I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I agree with you that praying by rote is unhelpful.<br/><br/> <cite>snip</cite></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> I don't think the passage is…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-02:1688216:Comment:7663232010-02-02T02:41:30.518ZChris Cockrellhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisCockrell
I don't think the passage is cautioning those utilizing "silent prayer", only those seeking attention from man - they have their reward. Please tell us how pre-written prayer can be an expression of your heart. Why do you "pray scripture" and how does that agree with what scripture says about the purpose and use of prayer??? I'm sure many out there are familur with this.<br />
<br />
All this seems counter productive in the every challenging task of getting customers into your shop to buy coffee given the…
I don't think the passage is cautioning those utilizing "silent prayer", only those seeking attention from man - they have their reward. Please tell us how pre-written prayer can be an expression of your heart. Why do you "pray scripture" and how does that agree with what scripture says about the purpose and use of prayer??? I'm sure many out there are familur with this.<br />
<br />
All this seems counter productive in the every challenging task of getting customers into your shop to buy coffee given the make up of the "general" public....<br />
<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Hooton said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?xg_source=activity&id=1688216%3ATopic%3A751170&page=4#1688216Comment765204"><div>I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I agree with you that praying by rote is unhelpful.<br/><br/> <cite>
snip</cite></div>
</blockquote> I don't think the intent of s…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-01:1688216:Comment:7652042010-02-01T04:22:59.288ZChris Hootonhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisHooton
I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I…
I don't think the intent of such a liturgy is to show off in front of the rest of the shop. I could envision myself using the liturgy silently, or leading private corporate worship experiences around the espresso machine. For what is is worth, I have come to view pre-written prayers as sometimes more powerful in expressing the thoughts of my heart than an extemporaneous prayer, especially when praying scripture. The psalms and the "Lord's Prayer" are useful when engaged with the heart, but, I agree with you that praying by rote is unhelpful.<br />
<br />
<cite>Deferio said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A765176&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment765176"><div>Thanks for this reply, Chris.<br/> <br/>
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A765121&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment765121"><div>Scriptures teach that worship and prayer are to be in a manner pleasing to God. It's not about what we want to gain from it, or like, or about what we think it should be - it's about what God wants and how he wants to be worshiped. Clearly scripture tells us this. Praying to God is not something memorized or for others to see us do, or to be seen, but for God. Yes, there is much to gain from prayer and a good prayer life. But God demands obediance. Look into His word. Consider this scripture from Gods word:<br/> <br/> <span class="NETBibletool"><a href="#">Matt. 6</a><span style="width: 150px; left: 0px; top: 1.26em;" class="NETBibletip">Click to view Matt. 6 (NIV)</span></span><br/>
1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.<br/>
<br/>
2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br/>
<br/>
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br/>
<br/>
7 "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.<br/>
<br/>
Food for thought!<br/>
<br/>
Chris</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> Thanks for this reply, Chris.…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-01:1688216:Comment:7651762010-02-01T03:56:17.905ZDeferiohttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Deferio
Thanks for this reply, Chris.<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A765121&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment765121"><div>Scriptures teach that worship and prayer are to be in a manner pleasing to God. It's not about what we want to gain from it, or like, or about what we think it should be - it's about what God wants and how he wants to be worshiped. Clearly scripture tells…</div>
</blockquote>
Thanks for this reply, Chris.<br />
<br />
<cite>Chris Cockrell said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A765121&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment765121"><div>Scriptures teach that worship and prayer are to be in a manner pleasing to God. It's not about what we want to gain from it, or like, or about what we think it should be - it's about what God wants and how he wants to be worshiped. Clearly scripture tells us this. Praying to God is not something memorized or for others to see us do, or to be seen, but for God. Yes, there is much to gain from prayer and a good prayer life. But God demands obediance. Look into His word. Consider this scripture from Gods word:<br/> <br/>
Matt. 6<br/>
1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.<br/>
<br/>
2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br/>
<br/>
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br/>
<br/>
7 "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.<br/>
<br/>
Food for thought!<br/>
<br/>
Chris</div>
</blockquote> Scriptures teach that worship…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-02-01:1688216:Comment:7651212010-02-01T02:21:17.764ZChris Cockrellhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/ChrisCockrell
Scriptures teach that worship and prayer are to be in a manner pleasing to God. It's not about what we want to gain from it, or like, or about what we think it should be - it's about what God wants and how he wants to be worshiped. Clearly scripture tells us this. Praying to God is not something memorized or for others to see us do, or to be seen, but for God. Yes, there is much to gain from prayer and a good prayer life. But God demands obediance. Look into His word. Consider this scripture…
Scriptures teach that worship and prayer are to be in a manner pleasing to God. It's not about what we want to gain from it, or like, or about what we think it should be - it's about what God wants and how he wants to be worshiped. Clearly scripture tells us this. Praying to God is not something memorized or for others to see us do, or to be seen, but for God. Yes, there is much to gain from prayer and a good prayer life. But God demands obediance. Look into His word. Consider this scripture from Gods word:<br />
<br />
Matt. 6<br />
1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.<br />
<br />
2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br />
<br />
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.<br />
<br />
7 "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.<br />
<br />
Food for thought!<br />
<br />
Chris I graduated in May with my M.…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-01-31:1688216:Comment:7645462010-01-31T06:00:58.761ZTerikahttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Terika
I graduated in May with my M.Div. and I will be getting ordained this summer. While I was in seminary I had to memorize the Shema in Hebrew. I cannot tell you how many times it still comes into my head as I am steaming milk or pulling shots of espresso. So I totally agree with likening it to a breath prayer. I believe that worship is a way of life, not just an hour on Sunday morning, so it's quite appropriate that it makes its way into everything you do...especially the things you…
I graduated in May with my M.Div. and I will be getting ordained this summer. While I was in seminary I had to memorize the Shema in Hebrew. I cannot tell you how many times it still comes into my head as I am steaming milk or pulling shots of espresso. So I totally agree with likening it to a breath prayer. I believe that worship is a way of life, not just an hour on Sunday morning, so it's quite appropriate that it makes its way into everything you do...especially the things you love.<br />
<cite>Chris Hooton said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/have-you-guys-seen-this?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A751170&page=3#1688216Comment763729"><div>Chris (my there are a lot of us in this thread),<br/> <br/>
I guess my hermeneutics radar has changed some over the last few years, largely thanks to getting more into the way the church fathers used scripture. If Billy were building a sermon or apologetic for coffee being in the Bible I would agree with you... its a stretch. Praying scripture, though, takes on a different quality for me. I have found myself praying with the psalmist things that have no direct application to my life situation, yet by entering the psalmists place like an actor playing a part, and praying with the psalmist, I find I touch a place of depth and communion with the church universal. I see Billy using the language of scripture to help our souls express something spiritual through our coffee making.<br/>
<br/>
Using it in the business of the day is another challenge, as is incorporating any spiritual discipline. I could see practicing it until I became comfortable with it. If I were able to recall bits of it, even phrases here and there as I am preparing drinks, it would incorporate nicely into the routine, like the way a breath prayer makes its way from the lips to the heart.<br/>
<br/></div>
</blockquote> But in all of this the greate…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2010-01-30:1688216:Comment:7641622010-01-30T21:13:54.224ZDennishttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Dennis894
But in all of this the greater issue is FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Do we not have the right to say anything anymore? Someone once said:<br />
<br />
I SHALL DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY BUT I SHALL FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT!<br />
<br />
Thanks for the debate guys and gals it was fun to read. Just make sure in all of this nobody takes it too serious. let's have some coffee now! go to your machines and pull a big ol shot and enjoy...:-)
But in all of this the greater issue is FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Do we not have the right to say anything anymore? Someone once said:<br />
<br />
I SHALL DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY BUT I SHALL FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT!<br />
<br />
Thanks for the debate guys and gals it was fun to read. Just make sure in all of this nobody takes it too serious. let's have some coffee now! go to your machines and pull a big ol shot and enjoy...:-)