Getting 'flat' coffee on my Diedrich IR-12 !!! - Barista Exchange2024-03-29T01:48:29Zhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1444849&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI figure I'll throw my two ce…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-05-01:1688216:Comment:14637842013-05-01T01:03:15.792ZAaron Jordanhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/AaronJordan
<p>I figure I'll throw my two cents into the mass of recommendations. I roast on an IR-12 and as someone else stated, temperature and profiles don't translate directly even if on the same roaster. My suggestion would be to get a sooner drop out temperature, if you go any quicker on your drop out time you will probably start to see scorching/tipping. However, if I'm not mistaken, you want to utilize the moisture in the bean to propagate heat evenly from the inside to the outside to produce…</p>
<p>I figure I'll throw my two cents into the mass of recommendations. I roast on an IR-12 and as someone else stated, temperature and profiles don't translate directly even if on the same roaster. My suggestion would be to get a sooner drop out temperature, if you go any quicker on your drop out time you will probably start to see scorching/tipping. However, if I'm not mistaken, you want to utilize the moisture in the bean to propagate heat evenly from the inside to the outside to produce proper browning reactions. When you heat the outside cellulose matrix of the coffee without using the moisture content inside to your advantage scorching will occur and can flatten out the taste perception of the cup (which I understand you're not having a problem with). However, I have noticed that when profiling a coffee if my drop out temperature happens way below boiling point (any more than 20 degrees) even in lighter roasts dropped just post first crack can produce that flat acidity that you're experiencing. I have found the best results when my drop out temperature is 10-15 degrees before boiling point, on my IR-12 that means 180-190F.</p>
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<p>Flat, bland, baked flavors generally (and this is very generally, there are other reasons as well) come from time spent in the roaster given the temperature rise. If minimizing roast characteristic and getting livelier acidity is what you want, I would recommend either using higher airflow (which will have to be counter-acted with lower heat because convectional heating will dry out the bean faster) or hitting first crack sooner (9:00-10:00) still keeping in mind that you don't scorch the coffee.</p>
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<p>Hope this helps! Look forward to hearing your progress.</p> Of course, what I'm about to…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-04-16:1688216:Comment:14610392013-04-16T04:07:39.395ZEric Schaeferhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/EricSchaefer
<p>Of course, what I'm about to say is personal preference, but I haven't had much luck with faster finishes. Most of my profiles are full city, so maybe running a little longer than you're going for, but I'm usually going about 5 minutes between FC and SC, and maybe another minute or so before I drop. For lighter, brighter roasts, I follow essentially the same profile, but just drop right around the SC onset. The reason I don't like the faster finishes is that they always seem to take on a…</p>
<p>Of course, what I'm about to say is personal preference, but I haven't had much luck with faster finishes. Most of my profiles are full city, so maybe running a little longer than you're going for, but I'm usually going about 5 minutes between FC and SC, and maybe another minute or so before I drop. For lighter, brighter roasts, I follow essentially the same profile, but just drop right around the SC onset. The reason I don't like the faster finishes is that they always seem to take on a biting, bitter, tar/phenol sort of flavor that I don't get if I stretch things out a little.</p>
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<p>For my tastes, the best way to brighten up your profiles would be to adjust batch sizes and early heat settings to get to FC faster. My ideal profile is about 9 minutes to FC, although the Diedrich I most recently worked on had a hard time getting there as fast as I wanted. I would roast some coffees in smaller batches specifically to get the faster ramp to FC and maintain more acidity and aroma.</p>
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<p>Below are links to two example profiles I really liked while roasting on a Diedrich IR-24 (despite its implied capacity, I could never get more than about 30lbs to do what I wanted on that machine - 25 or so seemed to be ideal.)</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.beowulf-recording.com/download/coffee/Roast%20Data/data%20-%20chart%20PDFs/12062703%20FC%20decaf%2024_2lb.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.beowulf-recording.com/download/coffee/Roast%20Data/data%20-%20chart%20PDFs/12062703%20FC%20decaf%2024_2lb.pdf</a></p>
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<p><a href="http://www.beowulf-recording.com/download/coffee/Roast%20Data/data%20-%20chart%20PDFs/12071208%20FC%20esp%20base%2018_75lb.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.beowulf-recording.com/download/coffee/Roast%20Data/data%20-%20chart%20PDFs/12071208%20FC%20esp%20base%2018_75lb.pdf</a></p>
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<p>P.S. If the charts seem a little weird, it's cause I've started graphing all of my roasts with FC as the "0" time mark. It makes it easier for me to compare the different stages of the roast on various batches.</p> I'm surprised about the flame…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-08:1688216:Comment:14496382013-03-08T05:43:05.735ZJames Tooillhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JamesTooill
<p>I'm surprised about the flame settings. Are you using 50% flame until you're close to first? If so, the first thing I'd try would be the increase that. Should shorten the drying phase a little but the real point is to have more energy stored in the coffee so it'll hold momentum while you're gently guiding it through 1st.</p>
<p>I'm surprised about the flame settings. Are you using 50% flame until you're close to first? If so, the first thing I'd try would be the increase that. Should shorten the drying phase a little but the real point is to have more energy stored in the coffee so it'll hold momentum while you're gently guiding it through 1st.</p> We strictly roast SHB from tw…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14448542013-02-18T19:21:35.076ZN. Hewitthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/NHewitt
<p>We strictly roast SHB from two reputable suppliers. Getting used to the new roaster is what has been our main issue. We've been happy with our profiles on our previous machines, but the Diedrich is an entirely different beast, and the learning curve has been steep. We are almost there though.</p>
<p>We strictly roast SHB from two reputable suppliers. Getting used to the new roaster is what has been our main issue. We've been happy with our profiles on our previous machines, but the Diedrich is an entirely different beast, and the learning curve has been steep. We are almost there though.</p> Aside from the great informat…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14448492013-02-18T18:32:45.860ZDennis McQuoidhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/DennisMcQuoid
<p>Aside from the great information your getting on the roast profiles, are you sure you're roasting fresh beans and not past crop? If the suggestions aren't working, maybe try a different roaster.</p>
<p>Aside from the great information your getting on the roast profiles, are you sure you're roasting fresh beans and not past crop? If the suggestions aren't working, maybe try a different roaster.</p> Hi David,
You have brought up…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14447502013-02-18T15:53:04.273ZN. Hewitthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/NHewitt
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>You have brought up an interesting point. We roast in an old warehouse and the temperature can fluctuate. However, there is a room where I can move my beans and better control the temperature. Thanks for the suggestion.</p>
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<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>David Myers said:…</cite></p>
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>You have brought up an interesting point. We roast in an old warehouse and the temperature can fluctuate. However, there is a room where I can move my beans and better control the temperature. Thanks for the suggestion.</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>David Myers said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1444746&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment1444932"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Is your bean storage room cold? That might account for some of the issues with using such high gas at the beginning. I don't let turning point / bottom temp get down below 172-175. At ~165 you are using a lot of energy at the beginning of the roast just to get things moving and in my experience, the roasts just aren't that good. <br/> <br/> <cite>N. Hewitt said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A1443936&page=2#1688216Comment1444648"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>The temperature was -2 degrees Celsius = 28 degrees Fahrenheit. We have very low humidity.</p>
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<p>Our weather and altitude are very close to what you would find in Denver Colorado.</p>
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</blockquote> What are you using for a roas…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14448352013-02-18T14:12:57.574Zfarmroasthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/farmroast
<p>What are you using for a roast program? The section of BT-RoR you showed a bit of drag into the ramp after drying where it dipped to 15/min. I'd try to smooth out that dip a bit. Do you have your RoR readings coming into first to dump? There also tends to be a natural dip as 1st gets rolling. The trick I find is not coming into first too fast while avoiding too much of a slow down for the min or so where the majority of the beans are cracking. Keeping the finish time closer to 3-3.5…</p>
<p>What are you using for a roast program? The section of BT-RoR you showed a bit of drag into the ramp after drying where it dipped to 15/min. I'd try to smooth out that dip a bit. Do you have your RoR readings coming into first to dump? There also tends to be a natural dip as 1st gets rolling. The trick I find is not coming into first too fast while avoiding too much of a slow down for the min or so where the majority of the beans are cracking. Keeping the finish time closer to 3-3.5 for adequate development and maintaining the acidity your looking for. </p> The other thing that was ment…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14447462013-02-18T13:41:35.314Znick placakishttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/nickplacakis
<p>The other thing that was mentioned earlier in the thread was batch size. For an IR-12 optimal batch size is probably closer 20#. Using this larger batch size will obviously change all the numbers, first being early on the turning point. Using the larger batch size will probably give you a turning point closer to 170-175 which is what one of the earlier posts suggested.</p>
<p>That might be the first place to start. All the other numbers will adjust along with it, although I still feel your…</p>
<p>The other thing that was mentioned earlier in the thread was batch size. For an IR-12 optimal batch size is probably closer 20#. Using this larger batch size will obviously change all the numbers, first being early on the turning point. Using the larger batch size will probably give you a turning point closer to 170-175 which is what one of the earlier posts suggested.</p>
<p>That might be the first place to start. All the other numbers will adjust along with it, although I still feel your charge temp. should be a little higher, just my 2 cents.</p>
<p> </p> What charge temperature would…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14449412013-02-18T06:59:09.256ZN. Hewitthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/NHewitt
<p>What charge temperature would you suggest? As well, what bottom temperature s ideal? What batch size is ideal for an IR-12.</p>
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<p>Thanks<br></br> <br></br> <cite>D. Smith said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1444932&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment1444731"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">I was born and raised in Calgary. It is very cold, but its a dry cold. Lol.…</div>
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<p>What charge temperature would you suggest? As well, what bottom temperature s ideal? What batch size is ideal for an IR-12.</p>
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<p>Thanks<br/> <br/> <cite>D. Smith said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1444932&xg_source=msg_com_forum#1688216Comment1444731"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">I was born and raised in Calgary. It is very cold, but its a dry cold. Lol. Humidity plays a large role in roasting coffee. Especially if your beans are stored in a dry environment. I am assuming you don't have a moisture meter? It's hard to help someone roast when there are so many variables involved. The first thing you should know is that the Deidrich roaster uses different burners than other roasters. It also uses heat exchangers in the ir12. The other thing is that it has a different airflow system. That being said, you need to make adjustments for this in your roast style. The other thing is don't confuse bean temperature with atmospheric temperature. Your batch size might be a little light. Your charge temp is too high and I am confused by the drop in temperature at the start of your roast. It seems way too low. What is the temperature of your roasting facility?</div>
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</blockquote> Is your bean storage room col…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-02-18:1688216:Comment:14449322013-02-18T00:02:44.315ZDavid Myershttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/DavidMyers
<p>Is your bean storage room cold? That might account for some of the issues with using such high gas at the beginning. I don't let turning point / bottom temp get down below 172-175. At ~165 you are using a lot of energy at the beginning of the roast just to get things moving and in my experience, the roasts just aren't that good. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>N. Hewitt said:…</cite></p>
<p>Is your bean storage room cold? That might account for some of the issues with using such high gas at the beginning. I don't let turning point / bottom temp get down below 172-175. At ~165 you are using a lot of energy at the beginning of the roast just to get things moving and in my experience, the roasts just aren't that good. <br/> <br/> <cite>N. Hewitt said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/getting-flat-coffee-on-my-diedrich-ir-12?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A1443936&page=2#1688216Comment1444648"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>The temperature was -2 degrees Celsius = 28 degrees Fahrenheit. We have very low humidity.</p>
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<p>Our weather and altitude are very close to what you would find in Denver Colorado.</p>
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