Brasilia Del-2 Compact Restore/Rebuild - Barista Exchange2024-03-29T06:07:31Zhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1422209&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Brady,
I test insulation r…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-30:1688216:Comment:14582202013-03-30T02:29:43.478ZLatté 911https://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Latte911
<p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>I test insulation resistance using a Curtis Handyman Multitester. This is a device left over from my days working on electric forklift trucks. There are meters devoted to the purpose, and most domestic units range in the $6-800 range, though Chinese units can be found for far less which still deliver acceptable accuracy and service life. I keep it in the shop as you acknowledge, working units freshly broken-down can be usually diagnosed without one. I only take it with me…</p>
<p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>I test insulation resistance using a Curtis Handyman Multitester. This is a device left over from my days working on electric forklift trucks. There are meters devoted to the purpose, and most domestic units range in the $6-800 range, though Chinese units can be found for far less which still deliver acceptable accuracy and service life. I keep it in the shop as you acknowledge, working units freshly broken-down can be usually diagnosed without one. I only take it with me when purchasing units for refurbishment. You can test a heating element, and verify integrity of motor armature and field windings, without powering-up a machine. It does have its uses. Cheers</p> Hmmm... doesn't sound like a…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-30:1688216:Comment:14578692013-03-30T02:10:54.676ZBradyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Brady
<p>Hmmm... doesn't sound like a tool worth carrying if you're a guy that usually tests machines out in the wild. Glad we talked about it though.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Latté 911 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?x=1&id=1688216%3ATopic%3A1422207&page=2#1688216Comment1457730"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>The difference between using the Megger versus a regular multimeter is the ability…</p>
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<p>Hmmm... doesn't sound like a tool worth carrying if you're a guy that usually tests machines out in the wild. Glad we talked about it though.<br/> <br/> <cite>Latté 911 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?x=1&id=1688216%3ATopic%3A1422207&page=2#1688216Comment1457730"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>The difference between using the Megger versus a regular multimeter is the ability to put a high voltage across the testing points using capacitive discharge. Admittedly when there's water in the boiler a water short is usually pretty obvious, but when evaluating a machine for refurbishment that has an empty boiler and/or trips the breaker when powering up, the insulation resistance test with a Megger is quick, easy and conclusive. Cheers</p>
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</blockquote> Water, especially boiler wate…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-29:1688216:Comment:14580222013-03-29T17:46:14.298ZScotthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Scott890
<p>Water, especially boiler water, isn't going to be much of an insulator. The only time I've been fooled using my Fluke, is when I failed to notice the "K" symbol lit up. Both elements in a steam boiler read 14.8. One was 14.8 K ohm and the other was 14.8 ohm. </p>
<p>Water, especially boiler water, isn't going to be much of an insulator. The only time I've been fooled using my Fluke, is when I failed to notice the "K" symbol lit up. Both elements in a steam boiler read 14.8. One was 14.8 K ohm and the other was 14.8 ohm. </p> I've often found that the res…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-28:1688216:Comment:14573812013-03-28T19:52:33.505ZMike Sabolhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/MikeSabol
<p>I've often found that the resistance of the the element, when dry, will climb toward the M-Ohm range, when you have a break in the insulation and a water short. Although, sometimes it will fall towards OPEN, as well. Which is why I'm a firm believer in taking ohm readings on elements instead of just looking at continuity. Resistance can start to wander up and down from spec, as well, so being able to get a reading and then do the Ohms Law calculation will give you a good idea of whether…</p>
<p>I've often found that the resistance of the the element, when dry, will climb toward the M-Ohm range, when you have a break in the insulation and a water short. Although, sometimes it will fall towards OPEN, as well. Which is why I'm a firm believer in taking ohm readings on elements instead of just looking at continuity. Resistance can start to wander up and down from spec, as well, so being able to get a reading and then do the Ohms Law calculation will give you a good idea of whether the element is on the way out. I sometime have to scratch my head at why people are so resistant to Resistance. Continuity is for checking for breaks in wires and determining unknown switches. It's inconclusive, at best, on elements.</p> Hi Brady,
The difference betw…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-28:1688216:Comment:14577302013-03-28T17:44:29.906ZLatté 911https://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Latte911
<p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>The difference between using the Megger versus a regular multimeter is the ability to put a high voltage across the testing points using capacitive discharge. Admittedly when there's water in the boiler a water short is usually pretty obvious, but when evaluating a machine for refurbishment that has an empty boiler and/or trips the breaker when powering up, the insulation resistance test with a Megger is quick, easy and conclusive. Cheers</p>
<p>Hi Brady,</p>
<p>The difference between using the Megger versus a regular multimeter is the ability to put a high voltage across the testing points using capacitive discharge. Admittedly when there's water in the boiler a water short is usually pretty obvious, but when evaluating a machine for refurbishment that has an empty boiler and/or trips the breaker when powering up, the insulation resistance test with a Megger is quick, easy and conclusive. Cheers</p> Interesting. I can see how it…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-28:1688216:Comment:14576272013-03-28T16:46:24.064ZBradyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Brady
<p>Interesting. I can see how it would be possible, but would be curious to know how many cases you've run across where there was a ground fault at the element which your continuity check actually missed and your Megger tester caught. I'm always on the lookout for new tools, but all of the failed espresso machine elements I've seen have shown a clear short to ground with just my Fluke.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Latté 911 said:…</cite></p>
<p>Interesting. I can see how it would be possible, but would be curious to know how many cases you've run across where there was a ground fault at the element which your continuity check actually missed and your Megger tester caught. I'm always on the lookout for new tools, but all of the failed espresso machine elements I've seen have shown a clear short to ground with just my Fluke.<br/> <br/> <cite>Latté 911 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?page=2&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1457309&x=1#1688216Comment1457309"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>"Unfortunately you can't get conclusive results with a multimeter alone, when testing for a water short. You can have a heating element test good with a multimeter and still pop the breaker when there's water in the boiler. This is called an insulation resistance test and requires specialized equipment to test it (also called a "megger" after a company that manufactures these testers). I have an insulation resistance tester and have used it to conclusively condemn elements in the past..."</p>
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</blockquote> Hi Benjamin,
Unfortunately yo…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-28:1688216:Comment:14573092013-03-28T03:26:25.029ZLatté 911https://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Latte911
<p>Hi Benjamin,</p>
<p>Unfortunately you can't get conclusive results with a multimeter alone, when testing for a water short. You can have a heating element test good with a multimeter and still pop the breaker when there's water in the boiler. This is called an insulation resistance test and requires specialized equipment to test it (also called a "megger" after a company that manufactures these testers). I have an insulation resistance tester and have used it to conclusively condemn elements…</p>
<p>Hi Benjamin,</p>
<p>Unfortunately you can't get conclusive results with a multimeter alone, when testing for a water short. You can have a heating element test good with a multimeter and still pop the breaker when there's water in the boiler. This is called an insulation resistance test and requires specialized equipment to test it (also called a "megger" after a company that manufactures these testers). I have an insulation resistance tester and have used it to conclusively condemn elements in the past, but given your situation I would invest the money in the $200-250 or so you would spend on an aftermarket heating element. If everything else checks ok and you are still popping breakers, it's usually a sign your element has been breached.</p>
<p>The cups the antivac and pressure relief valves sit in are for collecting condensation and are really more necessary for the antivac, which if working properly will be seeing a lot more steam than the pressure reliefs ever should. I wouldnt worry too much about discarding the cups for the relief valve, but keep it under the antivac.</p>
<p>One other point about your element, I can't remember the size exactly but it will probably cost you less to buy a 15" adjustable wrench, remove all surrounding obstacles, make sure the boiler is properly supported, and remove the element with that. I used this technique on an ECM Raffaello with a similar element recently and though it was tight, the wrench cost $30. you might be into that for a socket alone.</p>
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<p>Good luck. If you took your machine to a friendly welder, they might extract your rusted bolts for a case of beer. I would have new pieces sectioned in if I was doing a top shelf refurbishment of your machine, but if the perforation is in hidden areas, just a wire brush and a quick coat of rust converter primer may do the trick. Cheers</p> How is the restore going. I p…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-13:1688216:Comment:14516982013-03-13T23:33:18.859ZAaronhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Aaron455
<p>How is the restore going. I picked up my own <span>Brasillia Portofino 2GR and got it running great now after changing the 110v plug it came with ? lol</span></p>
<p>How is the restore going. I picked up my own <span>Brasillia Portofino 2GR and got it running great now after changing the 110v plug it came with ? lol</span></p> Ah... yes I bet that was it.…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-11:1688216:Comment:14505922013-03-11T22:04:47.869ZBradyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Brady
<p>Ah... yes I bet that was it.</p>
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<p>+1 on the "gotta have water in it to be meaningful" part too.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Scott said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?page=2&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1450300&x=1#1688216Comment1450300"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think he was checking for continuity between the element legs and the boiler. It needs have water in it first for that test to…</p>
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<p>Ah... yes I bet that was it.</p>
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<p>+1 on the "gotta have water in it to be meaningful" part too.<br/> <br/> <cite>Scott said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/brasilia-del-2-compact-restore-rebuild?page=2&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A1450300&x=1#1688216Comment1450300"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think he was checking for continuity between the element legs and the boiler. It needs have water in it first for that test to be meaningful/conclusive.<br/> <br/> <cite>Brady said:</cite></p>
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about testing the leads to boiler.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>
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</blockquote> I think he was checking for c…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2013-03-11:1688216:Comment:14503002013-03-11T20:22:40.830ZScotthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Scott890
<p>I think he was checking for continuity between the element legs and the boiler. It needs have water in it first for that test to be meaningful/conclusive.<br/> <br/> <cite>Brady said:</cite></p>
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about testing the leads to boiler.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>
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<p>I think he was checking for continuity between the element legs and the boiler. It needs have water in it first for that test to be meaningful/conclusive.<br/> <br/> <cite>Brady said:</cite></p>
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about testing the leads to boiler.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>
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