At war with the creamer station - Barista Exchange2024-03-29T15:39:59Zhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/at-war-with-the-creamer?commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A409423&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNick Cho said:"There's been a…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-05-14:1688216:Comment:4659092009-05-14T23:01:43.256ZChrishttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Chris24
<cite>Nick Cho said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/at-war-with-the-creamer?page=1&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A409365&x=1#1688216Comment409365"><div>"There's been a huge push in the "barista knows best" direction recently, whether it's no iced espresso or no 20 oz. cups."<br/> <br/>
What's wrong with iced espresso?<br/>
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;-)</div>
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are you referring to the do-it-yourself iced breve latte peeps?
<cite>Nick Cho said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/at-war-with-the-creamer?page=1&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A409365&x=1#1688216Comment409365"><div>"There's been a huge push in the "barista knows best" direction recently, whether it's no iced espresso or no 20 oz. cups."<br/> <br/>
What's wrong with iced espresso?<br/>
<br/>
;-)</div>
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are you referring to the do-it-yourself iced breve latte peeps? i've always thought "The Bari…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-05-05:1688216:Comment:4544902009-05-05T04:27:17.099ZMason Crewshttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/MasonCrews
i've always thought "The Barista Knows Best" but some things are irreversible. I think the only way to get them to try it where it actually tastes good, is to do what you've been doing and maybe take them aside (time willing) and talk to them about coffee. I also like people to actually taste the espresso and taste their coffee. I think they have to see the difference between a straight shot and a beverage that has been influenced by your taste but ultimately always you have to accept what they…
i've always thought "The Barista Knows Best" but some things are irreversible. I think the only way to get them to try it where it actually tastes good, is to do what you've been doing and maybe take them aside (time willing) and talk to them about coffee. I also like people to actually taste the espresso and taste their coffee. I think they have to see the difference between a straight shot and a beverage that has been influenced by your taste but ultimately always you have to accept what they want.<br />
Mason Crews This "Third Wave" is still a…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-04-01:1688216:Comment:4143772009-04-01T00:31:29.992ZMikehttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/CityTikie
This "Third Wave" is still a relatively young movement. It's slowly growing into what it seems a lot of folks in the industry would like, but is also being forced by others. The idea of coffee being like a wine in subtleties is completely foreign to consumers. There are times when I ask customers a question that is as simple as whether they would like our dark or light roast and they have no idea what I mean. Not everyone who orders a glass of red wine is going to care if it's a Pinot Noir or…
This "Third Wave" is still a relatively young movement. It's slowly growing into what it seems a lot of folks in the industry would like, but is also being forced by others. The idea of coffee being like a wine in subtleties is completely foreign to consumers. There are times when I ask customers a question that is as simple as whether they would like our dark or light roast and they have no idea what I mean. Not everyone who orders a glass of red wine is going to care if it's a Pinot Noir or Burgundy, the just want their fix and look cool doing it. How often do you see a bartender scrunching his or her face when a patron orders a mojito instead of a manhattan because they feel that the only drinks worth drinking are the classics?<br />
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We need to work with customers as much as we want them to work with us and allow the industry to become what we want it to be in time.<br />
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Of course, Thomas Keller doesn't want to grill burgers so he opened places like French Laundry and Per Se.<br />
It's not up to anyone but you (or your employer) to decide who your customers will be. And you encourage the consumer by what you're willing to do for them. That's awesome, word to your…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-31:1688216:Comment:4136812009-03-31T18:14:58.715ZLindseyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Lindsey52
That's awesome, word to your mother :)<br />
<cite>Jesse -D-> said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com//forum/topics/at-war-with-the-creamer?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A400418&page=2#1688216Comment411828"><div>I did, my mom wouldn't let me have coffee unless I drank it black. Thanks Mom!</div>
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That's awesome, word to your mother :)<br />
<cite>Jesse -D-> said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com//forum/topics/at-war-with-the-creamer?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A400418&page=2#1688216Comment411828"><div>I did, my mom wouldn't let me have coffee unless I drank it black. Thanks Mom!</div>
</blockquote> Educating customers is the wa…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-31:1688216:Comment:4136782009-03-31T18:14:17.936ZLindseyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Lindsey52
Educating customers is the way to go in my opinion, at my shop our menu is stripped to basics i.e. solo, doppio, cubano, cappaccino, latte, au lait ect.... with that our customers are almost forced to ask questions which in turn allows us to educate. Most often people are intrigued and want to try something new. Then there are customers who know what they want and could care less. They want what they want their way... And you know what that's fine, I say pick your battles; you'll have more…
Educating customers is the way to go in my opinion, at my shop our menu is stripped to basics i.e. solo, doppio, cubano, cappaccino, latte, au lait ect.... with that our customers are almost forced to ask questions which in turn allows us to educate. Most often people are intrigued and want to try something new. Then there are customers who know what they want and could care less. They want what they want their way... And you know what that's fine, I say pick your battles; you'll have more success with people who want to learn as opposed to those who don't. let those who don't want to learn stick to their starbitch over sugared mess. It is what it is and besides you can't force anyone to change, they have to want to. Interesting analogy... With b…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-31:1688216:Comment:4135292009-03-31T16:22:38.875ZSamantha Bakohttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/SamanthaBako
Interesting analogy... With beer, it seems to become an accustomed taste more by virtue of peer pressure, and you can't really add anything to beer to make it taste better. You just try and drink it as cold as possible. I never was much of a beer drinker, and still am not. I'd drink it to get drunk in college and that's about it, but if there were other options, I certainly went for them. It wasn't until very recently that people have been aware of various beer brews. I don't recall, growing…
Interesting analogy... With beer, it seems to become an accustomed taste more by virtue of peer pressure, and you can't really add anything to beer to make it taste better. You just try and drink it as cold as possible. I never was much of a beer drinker, and still am not. I'd drink it to get drunk in college and that's about it, but if there were other options, I certainly went for them. It wasn't until very recently that people have been aware of various beer brews. I don't recall, growing up, seeing all the IPAs and lagers and stouts and whatnot sitting on grocery store shelves.<br />
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With coffee, you CAN add things to change the taste, and it's traditional. I think we'd be hard pressed to argue any coffee purity - if you wanted to, you'd probably have to drink it turkish or cowboy style, because that's where it started, so saying black is best seems to be an attempt at elitism? ;)<br />
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There are just different approaches to coffee. Being "at war" with the cream station implies there's a One True Way of coffee drinking, and that's a fallacy. Auto-drip, press, pourover, chemex, espresso, etc. etc., they're all various ways of appreciating different aspects you're seeking, and some people seek coffee that tastes like melted coffee ice cream. Given the history of coffee in the US, it's taking a while for folks to realize that coffees even have different tastes and flavors - and when you have the largest open arms in the industry serving coffee that's essentially a cup of charcoal, our jobs as baristas can be even more difficult. We're moving in the right direction, though. I'm sure we all see customers changing their patterns on a daily basis, and the more we chat about it in a passionate manner, the more they'll decide to give our suggestions a try.<br />
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Instead of a free size upgrade, why not just offer a small amount for free, that they have to drink black? Maybe with the purchase of another drink, so you're not just tossing out free coffee. Agreed, Jonathan.
I've had c…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-31:1688216:Comment:4130732009-03-31T11:32:41.631ZBradyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Brady
Agreed, Jonathan.<br />
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I've had conversations with customers on days when we offered one of our uber-smooth varietals, sharing other customers' observations that the coffee didn't need cream or sugar. This seems a surprise to some people. It doesn't seem to occur to them that they could revisit their routine, or that a better coffee wouldn't need anything.<br />
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Ideas...<br />
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What about a day where you did a free size upgrade, with the caveat being that they had to drink it black?<br />
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Or a sign over the cream…
Agreed, Jonathan.<br />
<br />
I've had conversations with customers on days when we offered one of our uber-smooth varietals, sharing other customers' observations that the coffee didn't need cream or sugar. This seems a surprise to some people. It doesn't seem to occur to them that they could revisit their routine, or that a better coffee wouldn't need anything.<br />
<br />
Ideas...<br />
<br />
What about a day where you did a free size upgrade, with the caveat being that they had to drink it black?<br />
<br />
Or a sign over the cream station<br />
"XXX's coffee<br />
so good it doesn't need cream"<br />
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Good thread. Thanks for all the responses!…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-31:1688216:Comment:4130452009-03-31T08:56:18.854ZJonathan Amoshttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JonathanAmos
Thanks for all the responses! I agree with most all of you are saying- there's no feasible way for most of us to kill the creamer station because of cost that would do to the business. I have customers that I adore that use cream and sugar. I have absolutely no desire to take it out of my cafe. I guess for me it's just a philosophical issue of when your business makes a concerted effort to push the individuality of a certain coffee, and the effort that has been put into that coffee before it…
Thanks for all the responses! I agree with most all of you are saying- there's no feasible way for most of us to kill the creamer station because of cost that would do to the business. I have customers that I adore that use cream and sugar. I have absolutely no desire to take it out of my cafe. I guess for me it's just a philosophical issue of when your business makes a concerted effort to push the individuality of a certain coffee, and the effort that has been put into that coffee before it entered your hands, then how remarkable it is to hand them that cup and point them into the direction of an area where they can neutralize those aspects. I do understand that you can still tell a good coffee from a bad coffee after doctoring it, but it's the uniqueness that suffers. This is why I feel sometimes 'at war' with the creamer station.<br />
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The other issue that bothers me with coffee is yes, when I first tried it, I tried it with cream and then progressed towards drinking it black. But similarly, when I first tried beer, I didn't like it because I thought it was too bitter. Why for something like beer to we take the time to train ourselves to appreciate it, but with coffee we just add foreign elements in order to make it tolerable? In a lot of ways what I'm getting at here is how to reconstitute the consumer mindset that coffee is inherently intolerable and "needs" fixing-- that coffee and cream are complimentary. And this is what cuppings and something like Gimme's new year's day accomplish, and I'm excited to think about more ways that we can try to change that mindset. I did, my mom wouldn't let me…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-30:1688216:Comment:4118282009-03-30T17:25:11.318ZJesse -D->https://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JesseDarrow
I did, my mom wouldn't let me have coffee unless I drank it black. Thanks Mom!
I did, my mom wouldn't let me have coffee unless I drank it black. Thanks Mom! I certainly couldn't advocate…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2009-03-30:1688216:Comment:4117632009-03-30T16:38:30.954ZSamantha Bakohttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/SamanthaBako
I certainly couldn't advocate making customers do without something I occasionally enjoy, myself ;)<br />
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Sure, it would be fantastic if the majority of our customer base were as intrigued and interested in the flavor of coffee as we are, but they aren't, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why be condescending and snobbish about it? Use it as an opportunity for discussion. Stop acting like someone's "ruining" their coffee by adding some milk and/or sugar. I enjoy my coffee in a variety…
I certainly couldn't advocate making customers do without something I occasionally enjoy, myself ;)<br />
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Sure, it would be fantastic if the majority of our customer base were as intrigued and interested in the flavor of coffee as we are, but they aren't, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why be condescending and snobbish about it? Use it as an opportunity for discussion. Stop acting like someone's "ruining" their coffee by adding some milk and/or sugar. I enjoy my coffee in a variety of ways. Sometimes I like it straight and black, sometimes (especially early in the morning when I'm not quite awake yet) I enjoy a nice au lait. FORCING people to drink it your way does a disservice to the bread and butter of your business.<br />
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Feel free to host coffee parties on your own time, where you force people to drink black coffee and taste the varietals. That's why many wineries host tastings open to the public. Hold triangulations and cuppings. But there's no need for a bad attitude about it. Openness, tolerance, and a willingness to discuss and compromise goes a long way.<br />
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Oftentimes I try to work with the customer - if they want a lot of cream in their drink, I try to talk them into an au lait. If they want to sweeten their latte, I offer to do it for them so I don't have to experience the trauma of watching my rosetta get all stirred up :D There's an odd psychology to customers, though, who don't want to buy the last cookie, don't want to make you go to any trouble (like steaming milk), etc. That's where your attitude will make or break - if you ACT like you're put out about it, they're definitely not going to want to trouble you. If you act like you REALLY want to do it, they can be convinced. It's a lot easier, and less stressful, to just work on meeting them halfway.<br />
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I mean, how many of us started out drinking black single sources or straight espresso?