Charging more for soy? - Barista Exchange2024-03-29T08:31:58Zhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/1688216:Topic:115337?feed=yes&xn_auth=noNot that I have much stock in…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-21:1688216:Comment:14333192012-12-21T18:15:30.101Zwill frithhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/frith
<p>Not that I have much stock in either side of the argument (Black coffee and espresso drinker), but a curiosity about "COG analysis." It's a term small business owners use a lot, but often the scope of COG doesn't include the long-term infrastructural costs of, say, refrigeration and space. A bit narrow, if I may say.</p>
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<p>Soy and tetra-pak liquids have long room-temp shelf lives, and the cost per unit for one carton vs one case (of 12, usually) are significantly higher, not to…</p>
<p>Not that I have much stock in either side of the argument (Black coffee and espresso drinker), but a curiosity about "COG analysis." It's a term small business owners use a lot, but often the scope of COG doesn't include the long-term infrastructural costs of, say, refrigeration and space. A bit narrow, if I may say.</p>
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<p>Soy and tetra-pak liquids have long room-temp shelf lives, and the cost per unit for one carton vs one case (of 12, usually) are significantly higher, not to mention what larger quantity (more than 2 cases or even a pallet) purchases can save the operator. I've heard of buying groups going in on a pallet and breaking it out for each member when the shipment arrives at the agreed location.</p>
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<p>Many cafes have a milk delivery service (receiving discounts to make it more affordable than retail or even discount retail price - like Cash N Carry, or at a less competitive cost made up for by convenience), and seeing those costs are easy. Most cafes' soy/alt-milks come off the shelf at Costco or Cash n Carry at higher prices than perhaps a semi-local distributor could give, or even the actual company (some will set up a wholesale account for less volume than you think). Most of these purchasing decisions come out of convenience ("I'm at Costco/CnC already, it's convenient to buy alt-milk while I'm here"), best price for the area, and local availability (in which case, ya gotta do what ya gotta do).</p>
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<p>Anyone who's had to have the backup milk refrigerator (or any other) repaired knows it's expensive to maintain, but where do <em>those</em> costs go? It's not a capital investment, etc. And it probably never gets figured into the cost of milk-based drinks, or even the COG. We must be careful not to cherry-pick our numbers to confirm a too-simple bias.</p>
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<p>IMHO, only the particular operator knows their own situation well enough to make that call. Charging extra may be just what a place needs to break even on those particular items, but I choose to see those alternatives (along with tea and chai lattes and decaf coffee) as a marketing/customer relations cost, as one rarely sees a group of 4 alt-milk drinkers coming into a cafe together (same goes for tea-drinkers, etc). The option is there so these groups of folks can meet in one place, regardless of dietary restrictions or beverage preferences between that one group of people. Often, if given good service, the alternatives customers will become your most vocal loyalists, bringing in other friends who may or may not share the need for the product. Well worth a couple of dimes "lost" for a tiny percentage of the drinks being made.</p> I had to do the math on this…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-21:1688216:Comment:14331512012-12-21T14:53:36.673ZNick Van Sletthttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Beyond_The_Grave
<p>I had to do the math on this to make sure I was contributing accurate data, but here is what I found for our shop:</p>
<p>Soy milk is 3x more expensive per gallon than our high-quality cow's milk. That purports to about a $0.05/oz difference. That means for a 12oz drink, our price rises by $0.60. Charging $0.50 for us is actually a compromise for us, especially considering our typical customer will order a 16oz beverage (we charge $0.50 mark up, the actual discrepancy from our standard is…</p>
<p>I had to do the math on this to make sure I was contributing accurate data, but here is what I found for our shop:</p>
<p>Soy milk is 3x more expensive per gallon than our high-quality cow's milk. That purports to about a $0.05/oz difference. That means for a 12oz drink, our price rises by $0.60. Charging $0.50 for us is actually a compromise for us, especially considering our typical customer will order a 16oz beverage (we charge $0.50 mark up, the actual discrepancy from our standard is $0.80, resulting in a $0.30 cut into the money we need to keep the shop going). </p>
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<p>Being from the Midwest, perhaps cow's milk is less expensive for our shop, but I wouldn't be able to justify bringing up the cost of all drinks on the menu to account for optional, more costly items. The shop would also suffer from not charging the additional cost of the item.</p>
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<p>I view an upcharge for soy milk from our standard milk no different than the difference in cost between two origins of coffee. There are a lot of variables which boil down to: one costs much more than another. Would you charge the same price between a nice $20/lb Ethiopia and a $60/lb Geisha when you serve it?</p>
<p>It would be nice if soy and regular milk were the same price so that I wouldn't have to charge more money to make a drink with an alternative milk product. Sell enough soy milk drinks, and that ratio is spot on with those coffees.</p>
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<p>I would love to sell each drink at the same price no matter the modifiers, but it is impractical until the discrepancy becomes a bit more muted. None of our customers bat an eye due to the up-charge, though. They get it.</p>
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<p>I sympathize with those who have milk allergies--I've had intolerance of milk on and off and still cannot imagine being allergic--but sympathy is not what makes a COG analysis.</p>
<p></p> Wow -- I started this thread…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-21:1688216:Comment:14328962012-12-21T03:30:48.494Zsoysuckerhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/soysucker
<p>Wow -- I started this thread over 4 years ago, and here we are! I've moved from San Francisco to Oakland to New Haven CT, worked espresso jobs in all three, and have yet to be obliged to be the enforcer of a soy tax. Be that as it may, living in New Haven has been a real eye-opener in terms of the differences that supply chains and customer cultures can make. I'm also a home-roaster now with an efficient little kitchen-counter HX, so 9 out of 10 occasions that I get an espresso somewhere…</p>
<p>Wow -- I started this thread over 4 years ago, and here we are! I've moved from San Francisco to Oakland to New Haven CT, worked espresso jobs in all three, and have yet to be obliged to be the enforcer of a soy tax. Be that as it may, living in New Haven has been a real eye-opener in terms of the differences that supply chains and customer cultures can make. I'm also a home-roaster now with an efficient little kitchen-counter HX, so 9 out of 10 occasions that I get an espresso somewhere other than work or home, it's probably a high-end third-waver that charges top dollar for truly top-notch 'spro and wouldn't want to weaken their image with a menu convolution as parsimonious as an upcharge for alternative milk. At that level, though, I wouldn't bother with a milk drink anyway... But I digress. My point at this stage is more to say that I'm far more sympathetic to the cafes that feel that their survival depends on things like an upcharge; it's a business decision that I begrudge no one, unfortunate consumer turn-off though it may be. My current place of employ sells bagels etc, and does upcharge for tofu cream cheese. Even then we only just barely break even on it, as the tofutti at our access remains a cool 3X the cost of dairy. So, hey -- you do what you gotta do.</p>
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<p>The coffee world, with its hallowed link to the baby-food of cows, is not by and large a place I'd expect heaping loads of sympathy for the plight of those that seek alternatives. So all this resistance to the idea of juggling prices to avoid a flat soy tax is reflexive, and I accept that. Having moved out of the Bay Area bubble, I actually accept it more respectfully than ever. As far as being bowled over with gratitude by the simple act of a cafe carrying soy at all -- I can't really do that, because for me personally, as I'm not really into drinking much milk of any sort, if I really can't drink a coffee without it, it must be fully god-awful coffee, and at that point the predominant sensation is one of rue for my addiction rather than joy to be at that cafe.</p>
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<p>Regarding burnt soy --- I've pretty much come to expect it from all but the very best espresso joints. Steaming soy is hardly more difficult than steaming skim; the slightest bit of training and attention could get it done right enough at least not to offend, but given the attitude most coffee places (and many coffee aficionados) seem to have towards soy, it's no surprise that the requisite techniques are neglected. If I'm in a lower-end shop or a megachain, even if I am "lucky" enough that they'd deign to carry soy at all, I don't order it; I go americano and hope for an unbleached sugar of some kind. I may get a sugar crash later, but at least the drink was brewed to order and I won't end up with a headache. Or an unduly lightened wallet. :P </p>
<p> </p> Lack of training and/or they…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-21:1688216:Comment:14329232012-12-21T00:45:08.652ZDavid Myershttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/DavidMyers
<p>Lack of training and/or they just don't care.</p>
<p>Lack of training and/or they just don't care.</p> I agree. There's nothing "evi…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-20:1688216:Comment:14326082012-12-20T21:26:34.256ZAndHeDrewhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/andhedrew
<p>I agree. There's nothing "evil" about charging more for soy. It's an extra expense just to keep another product around, which can go bad, takes up extra space, and needs to be ordered now and again.</p>
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<p>Why not be thankful that coffeeshops have soy for us to drink, rather than shaking our fists in the air and demanding it as a basic human right?</p>
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<p><cite>Brady said:…</cite></p>
<p>I agree. There's nothing "evil" about charging more for soy. It's an extra expense just to keep another product around, which can go bad, takes up extra space, and needs to be ordered now and again.</p>
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<p>Why not be thankful that coffeeshops have soy for us to drink, rather than shaking our fists in the air and demanding it as a basic human right?</p>
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<p><cite>Brady said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topics/1688216:Topic:115337#1688216Comment115453"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">I loved the line about "just asking for shot on ice, then adding soy at the condiment bar". Mind if I copy that over to the thread about how to prevent freeloading "ghetto latte" customers?<br/> <br/> We don't charge for a splash of soy instead of half-and-half, but do a flat upcharge for the substitutions. Upcharging seems fair, soy costs more. Not 50 cents more, but 1-2 cents per ounce, which is significant in a 16oz beverage. Just go to the grocery store and look at the per ounce price difference if you are actually curious. Why would you not apply the same margin to soy as you do for all other ingredients?<br/> <br/> Guys, please don't forget that the "nice markup" that your store "inflicts" on your customers is what pays the electric bill, the rent, your wage, and probably not much else.</div>
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</blockquote> I am a soy drinker and a cafe…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2012-12-19:1688216:Comment:14326812012-12-19T19:21:08.858ZJason Campbellhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JasonCampbell840
I am a soy drinker and a cafe owner...I charge more. It costs more...when I'm out, I pay more. Unfortunately, most folks don't know how the heck to steam soy, I do get bummed when I pay more for a really bad drink. Here's the real question... Why does almost everyone I run into...burn the soy?
I am a soy drinker and a cafe owner...I charge more. It costs more...when I'm out, I pay more. Unfortunately, most folks don't know how the heck to steam soy, I do get bummed when I pay more for a really bad drink. Here's the real question... Why does almost everyone I run into...burn the soy? Soysucker-
Gosh, it reads li…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2008-09-20:1688216:Comment:1527282008-09-20T06:00:35.389ZJay Caragayhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JayCaragay
Soysucker-<br />
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Gosh, it reads like you've got a lot of issues surrounding this whole milk/soy thing.<br />
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The biggest problem with everything you've written is the hogwash about getting "hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propaganda."<br />
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Exactly what is this "industry propaganda" you're whining about? That a business needs to make a profit on its' products in order to stay in business and keep providing product for its' customers and a living for its' employees?<br />
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The…
Soysucker-<br />
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Gosh, it reads like you've got a lot of issues surrounding this whole milk/soy thing.<br />
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The biggest problem with everything you've written is the hogwash about getting "hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propaganda."<br />
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Exactly what is this "industry propaganda" you're whining about? That a business needs to make a profit on its' products in order to stay in business and keep providing product for its' customers and a living for its' employees?<br />
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The odd thing is that you've purposely ignored the facts regarding cost and necessary markup in order to hold on to this fanaticism about "industry propaganda" because you're merely upset that any shop would deign to charge more for soy. By Kearney's own numbers and common foodservice metric, a fifty cent upcharge for soy is still a loss for the shop in question.<br />
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There's no "propaganda" here about soy costing more. It simply costs more - and not only in terms of cost for the raw product. We're also talking about additional storage and handling costs. Additional refrigeration space - as the presence of soy displaces the ability to store milk in the same space.<br />
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There's a cost to everything and people like yourself who wish to ignore the financial realities of business want these small coffee shops to take it in the neck just because? Why? Especially when people like you purposely ignore the fact that shops ARE taking it in the neck - even with a fifty cent charge. "The Soy Latte: bastardizatio…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2008-09-19:1688216:Comment:1522802008-09-19T22:44:11.589ZJason Haegerhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/JasonHaeger
<i><b>"The Soy Latte: bastardization, or evolution?"</b></i><br />
I vote "neither". It's an available alternative that several people may have a tendency to prefer.<br />
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At most, it's a simple modification. I think "bastardization" is extreme, as is "evolution".<br />
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It's just another available choice.
<i><b>"The Soy Latte: bastardization, or evolution?"</b></i><br />
I vote "neither". It's an available alternative that several people may have a tendency to prefer.<br />
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At most, it's a simple modification. I think "bastardization" is extreme, as is "evolution".<br />
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It's just another available choice. Hey Brady,
You know, you're r…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2008-09-19:1688216:Comment:1522752008-09-19T22:38:50.515Zsoysuckerhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/soysucker
Hey Brady,<br />
You know, you're right. I suppose I was feeling somewhat set-upon when languaging the initial post; "punishment" is not the most diplomatic of ways to describe the situation, I admit. I tend to get pretty hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propoganda. I say "significant" because change, and the desire for it, is a necessary component to our overall survival, and concede that it is "idealism" because whatever directions I've taken with my own…
Hey Brady,<br />
You know, you're right. I suppose I was feeling somewhat set-upon when languaging the initial post; "punishment" is not the most diplomatic of ways to describe the situation, I admit. I tend to get pretty hot and defensive when significant idealism runs up against industry propoganda. I say "significant" because change, and the desire for it, is a necessary component to our overall survival, and concede that it is "idealism" because whatever directions I've taken with my own behavior, I don't and can't expect of anyone else. I never really wanted to end up in debate about the nutritional virtues of soy over cow, though when discussing it even from a purely business standpoint, I guess it was inevitable, considering a business's stance on which among a variety of consumer/customer motivations are deserving of accommodation. (Even though either way, I understand business and bottom lines are generally all about demand, and the potential to recoup costs, and then some. In a perfect world, health would [but does not presently] enter into it.)<br />
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I was ignorant of the drastic differences in regional availabilities and costs, and hadn't realized how huge the differences can be for cafes that are strictly, a little bit, or not at all organic. What I realize is that it's a pretty entrenched thing, I guess. My conclusion is that, if a brand new cafe starts out with a certain set of goals and ideals + in a region with the demographics and availabilities to match, anything is possible. For an existing cafe with a long-established set of resources and goals to grapple with soy and other evolutions as they develop is another question, which runs up against conflicting ideologies as well as economics, for which the only antidote seems to be overwhelming customer demand -- which I now realize doesn't yet exist in most places.<br />
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At any rate, now I can't help myself... People who switch from cow to soy and then back to cow sound like people who are probably too dependent on the idea of milk as a miracle food to begin with. Neither cow nor soy are perfect foods, although frankly, I'd take plant estrogens (which, contrary to popular myths, have no effect on human male reproductive function or development, and which do not increase the risk of breast or uterine cancer in postmenopausal women, but may in fact actually help curb breast cancer after menopause) over high cholesterol, heart disease, diabetes, etc etc.. But hey, if you happen to be a hairy little four-legged newborn vegan that has to double his/her weight in the first two months of life and then grow to 300 pounds within a year, then maybe cow's milk will match your nutritional needs. As for calcium (in humans), the best sources are neither cow's milk nor soy, but of course green leafy vegetables and legumes; cow's milk and other overly-high-protein elements of an unhealthy diet actually counteract whatever calcium comes along with it (which is why osteoporosis is highest in countries that consume the most milk and meat, like ours).<br />
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As far as environmental preservation and responsible use of resources go, kilocalorically there's a ratio of 14:1 for units of fossil fuel energy consumed per unit of milk protein produced, which in the end is not the best protein anyway. Granted, I don't know how that measures up to shipping in soy from overseas, though there are other energy savings to factor in, such as shelf stability. And then there's how the grain fed to cows in the US alone could feed nearly a billion humans, or could pump many billion$ into our economy through export. The acreage set aside for grass-fed cows could also be put to use more responsibly for organic farming. I'm certainly no big fan of goods from China, and yet the USDA logo appears just as prominently on them as it does on Mr. Happy Cow. So when a powerful American industry throws many hundreds of million$ into lobbying, advertising, political contributions, etc, to preserve itself, that's when you can trust th Jeff Kearney said:Qusetion fo…tag:www.baristaexchange.com,2008-09-18:1688216:Comment:1505332008-09-18T21:54:28.212ZBradyhttps://www.baristaexchange.com/profile/Brady
<cite>Jeff Kearney said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topic/show?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A115337&page=3&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A150141&x=1#1688216Comment146964"><div>Qusetion for all of you... What percentage of lattes/ specialtly beverages are going out of you're shops? As compared to moo juice.</div>
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Hi Jeff,<br />
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It is currently a small percentage, perhaps 1 or 2%. I go through many gallons of milk in the time it takes me to go through…
<cite>Jeff Kearney said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.baristaexchange.com/forum/topic/show?id=1688216%3ATopic%3A115337&page=3&commentId=1688216%3AComment%3A150141&x=1#1688216Comment146964"><div>Qusetion for all of you... What percentage of lattes/ specialtly beverages are going out of you're shops? As compared to moo juice.</div>
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Hi Jeff,<br />
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It is currently a small percentage, perhaps 1 or 2%. I go through many gallons of milk in the time it takes me to go through half a gallon. This number was higher a while ago, but some of my "lifestyle" soy drinkers changed back to regular milk. I was surprised to find out how many were choosing soy just because they'd heard it was better for them. Very few had ever actually looked at the label and compared that to their specific health goals.<br />
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Soysucker, I'm going to suggest that perhaps you re-read your original post and subsequent replies if you have any question why the responses are coming in with a tone that you don't like.<br />
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There are quite a few things on the minds of a coffee shop owner most of the time... punishing a small subset of the customer is not typically in that mix. Please don't assume that the situation in another shop is the same as yours, or judge other owners through that lens.<br />
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By the way, I still make a milk version of that iced scooped microfoam and espresso drink about once a week. Thanks.