Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chris Y. Gaoiran on October 25, 2009 at 2:41pm

Ricky: Take a gander at http://ninthstreetespresso.com/ 's menu. It's seven items long, priced a little higher than I would feel comfortable charging/expecting someone to pay, all from a shop that back in 2001 or 2002, was paying $120/sq ft in rent on a street not on the main strip, but a dedicated walk off Broadway.

When I was first hired by Barefoot Coffee three years ago they were serving up the usual selection of syrups, two sizes for each drink and had a blender in the store. I kept hearing about the pursuit of Taste First in regard to quality and accepted what we were doing as putting coffee first (via the roast). It wasn't until I heard Ninth Street's story of nixing syrups and having only seven items (in 2001/2002, five years before my shop was doing it) that I had a complete paradigm shift.

Barefoot eventually practiced what it preached in both roast and drink preparation in 2005. Thanks to peer roasters/cafes doing the same (Ritual, Verve, Blue Bottle), the coffee culture in the SF Bay Area is more accepting of the coffee-first perspective, but its far from universal.

Tomorrow is my new shop's soft opening. I'm a bit anxious; coffee focused menu, several drinks served in ceramic only, directly across the street from City Hall who, for generally being better educated can still be as dense and stubborn about the way they want THEIR coffee. The menu thus far:

French Press (16 oz) - Ceramic/Paper, one size only, the default drip
-----
Espresso (2 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Macc (2.25 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Capp (6 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Americano (6 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic* but if someone really asks, we'll make a paper variant with 6-12 oz.
-----
Latte (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper
Mocha (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper
Hot Chocolate (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper

We spent a solid day trying out multiple chocolates and decided on a 72-75% cacao as the best taste and best compliment to our coffees and milk.

I believe in making the customer the best drink possible, but I also believe that a barista's best drinks are the ones they respect the most, which is why each of our offerings are one size. Each size is what we feel each drink should be, both in proportion, drink experience, and nods to the traditional beverages. I'm not knocking a 12 oz cappuccino. If you love it, then you love it, but I don't know if I can proudly make a drink of that volume with respect to its ingredients (how many shots is that? How long do the first two shots sit while I'm making the second two shots AND steaming milk)? I'll make it the best I can, but I tell ya, my heart wouldn't be in it.

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I would love to have one of your macchiato's. It might change my mind again.



Ricky Sutton said:

I'm going to be honest and say that i'm a little turned off by your disrespect for un-traditional espresso drinks. Any drink that you put on your menu deserves respect. We live in America and even the most espresso forward coffee shops offer latte's and mocha's. Of course, if you don't want to make them you don't have to. But i feel that a healthier perspective is to say that if someone wants a mocha, you're going to give them the best damn mocha that they've ever had. Make it an elegant drink. Find some high quality chocolate. Peruse the selection of local (or french) chocolatiers and find a great chocolate or make syrup from their powder. Have your employees perfect their milk and pours. Make them a delicious and beautiful drink even if it's not something that you would want to drink yourself.
Another perspective is financial. It's great if everyone who comes into your shop orders an espresso, but that will mean that your average ticket is $2. The latte's pay the bills.
It has always been my fantasy to (after opening a cafe) open a street stand with a very limited menu. I'm thinking; Espresso, Macchiato, Cappuccino, 10 oz. Latte, 10 oz. Americano, and Brewed Coffee. And that's IT. To-go cups for 10 oz. drinks only. No modifications. No nonfat, no sugar free hazelnut syrup, no extra hot. I think that if it were done right, it could survive serving a niche demographic.
Unfortunately though, the nature of any coffee shop in America is that we have to make big milky drinks, so i wouldn't have too much angst about it if i were you.

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Suppose I was a bit more coffee snobbish in my business plan. I never even wanted Nero Black for the milk baby latte cups, figured the beverage didn't deserve the added elegance:-)

And yeah, I'm gonna be majorly ticked if I can't find more of the rounded shape Nero 3oz macch' cups...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on October 26, 2009 at 10:00pm

I have been keeping an eye on the progress of Red Berry. Ecco, Ritual, and Barefoot is a great lineup. And it gives you the option of choosing the best espresso for an individual drink. So your strait shots could be a SO from Ecco, while your cappuccino's could be High Striker, etc. I am a fan of the multiple roaster concept, as a few Portland shops employ this method.
Like i said, i've always fantasized about having a "ceramic one size only" kind of shop. I just can't imagine refusing to make someone's cappuccino in a paper cup if they asked me to. Of course if someone comes to my shop and says "espresso" or "cappuccino" it gets made in ceramic, but if they specifically say "to go" then while i'm a little sad, i make it to go. The one size only concept works with a cappuccino, because the cappuccino has a long history. Hell, Italy has passed literal laws about what a cappuccino can and cannot be in their country. Since proportion is part of what makes a cappuccino a cappuccino, i gently remind people who want a 16 oz. cappuccino that what they're getting is really just a 16 oz. really foamy latte. But drinks like Mocha's and latte's are a little different. There really is no standard size for a mocha that i'm aware of. So i will make someone a 8, 12, 16, 20, 32, whatever oz. mocha they want (provided that they have their own 32 oz. cup since i don't have any).
Anyway, it just seems dangerous to only make what you want to make. I think that you're taking the right path in establishing this idea right off the bat, but would you really refuse to make someone a 16 oz. latte if you have 16 oz. cups? Inversely, if you have 8 oz. ceramic cups would you refuse to make someone a 8 oz. latte? If you would refuse the 16 but not the 8, what makes the difference? I feel like it's fine to not offer something if you don't want to. It's your business so it's your prerogative. If you don't want to make drinks with syrups, then don't offer them, simple as that. But if you're perfectly capable of doing something like make a 16 oz. extra hot latte to go, and you refuse... well, people are probably not going to understand why.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not trash talking your shop. I'm sure you will make great coffee and do fine. I'm just saying that those would be my concerns if i were involved with this project.

Chris Y. Gaoiran said:

Ricky: Take a gander at http://ninthstreetespresso.com/ 's menu. It's seven items long, priced a little higher than I would feel comfortable charging/expecting someone to pay, all from a shop that back in 2001 or 2002, was paying $120/sq ft in rent on a street not on the main strip, but a dedicated walk off Broadway.

When I was first hired by Barefoot Coffee three years ago they were serving up the usual selection of syrups, two sizes for each drink and had a blender in the store. I kept hearing about the pursuit of Taste First in regard to quality and accepted what we were doing as putting coffee first (via the roast). It wasn't until I heard Ninth Street's story of nixing syrups and having only seven items (in 2001/2002, five years before my shop was doing it) that I had a complete paradigm shift.

Barefoot eventually practiced what it preached in both roast and drink preparation in 2005. Thanks to peer roasters/cafes doing the same (Ritual, Verve, Blue Bottle), the coffee culture in the SF Bay Area is more accepting of the coffee-first perspective, but its far from universal.

Tomorrow is my new shop's soft opening. I'm a bit anxious; coffee focused menu, several drinks served in ceramic only, directly across the street from City Hall who, for generally being better educated can still be as dense and stubborn about the way they want THEIR coffee. The menu thus far:

French Press (16 oz) - Ceramic/Paper, one size only, the default drip
-----
Espresso (2 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Macc (2.25 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Capp (6 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic
Americano (6 oz) - Exclusively Ceramic* but if someone really asks, we'll make a paper variant with 6-12 oz.
-----
Latte (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper
Mocha (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper
Hot Chocolate (12 oz) - Ceramic/Paper

We spent a solid day trying out multiple chocolates and decided on a 72-75% cacao as the best taste and best compliment to our coffees and milk.

I believe in making the customer the best drink possible, but I also believe that a barista's best drinks are the ones they respect the most, which is why each of our offerings are one size. Each size is what we feel each drink should be, both in proportion, drink experience, and nods to the traditional beverages. I'm not knocking a 12 oz cappuccino. If you love it, then you love it, but I don't know if I can proudly make a drink of that volume with respect to its ingredients (how many shots is that? How long do the first two shots sit while I'm making the second two shots AND steaming milk)? I'll make it the best I can, but I tell ya, my heart wouldn't be in it.

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I would love to have one of your macchiato's. It might change my mind again.



Ricky Sutton said:

I'm going to be honest and say that i'm a little turned off by your disrespect for un-traditional espresso drinks. Any drink that you put on your menu deserves respect. We live in America and even the most espresso forward coffee shops offer latte's and mocha's. Of course, if you don't want to make them you don't have to. But i feel that a healthier perspective is to say that if someone wants a mocha, you're going to give them the best damn mocha that they've ever had. Make it an elegant drink. Find some high quality chocolate. Peruse the selection of local (or french) chocolatiers and find a great chocolate or make syrup from their powder. Have your employees perfect their milk and pours. Make them a delicious and beautiful drink even if it's not something that you would want to drink yourself.
Another perspective is financial. It's great if everyone who comes into your shop orders an espresso, but that will mean that your average ticket is $2. The latte's pay the bills.
It has always been my fantasy to (after opening a cafe) open a street stand with a very limited menu. I'm thinking; Espresso, Macchiato, Cappuccino, 10 oz. Latte, 10 oz. Americano, and Brewed Coffee. And that's IT. To-go cups for 10 oz. drinks only. No modifications. No nonfat, no sugar free hazelnut syrup, no extra hot. I think that if it were done right, it could survive serving a niche demographic.
Unfortunately though, the nature of any coffee shop in America is that we have to make big milky drinks, so i wouldn't have too much angst about it if i were you.

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

Suppose I was a bit more coffee snobbish in my business plan. I never even wanted Nero Black for the milk baby latte cups, figured the beverage didn't deserve the added elegance:-)

And yeah, I'm gonna be majorly ticked if I can't find more of the rounded shape Nero 3oz macch' cups...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike McGinness on December 20, 2009 at 10:47pm

I just got (not just ordered by received) a dozen Nero 3oz FAC macchiato demi's (stamped ACF on the bottom of the cups, identical from the ones I'd purchased previously from Great Infusions) from Vissons Espresso. I called and talked to them before ordering to confirm they were the correct size. And they are. Interestingly it's the only size FAC demi they carry.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on December 21, 2009 at 2:19pm

Great to know!

I'm going to order a bunch of these before they're replaced with the 2.25 oz.

Thanks for the tip!

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

I just got (not just ordered by received) a dozen Nero 3oz FAC macchiato demi's (stamped ACF on the bottom of the cups, identical from the ones I'd purchased previously from Great Infusions) from Vissons Espresso. I called and talked to them before ordering to confirm they were the correct size. And they are. Interestingly it's the only size FAC demi they carry.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John P on December 21, 2009 at 3:11pm

As of now, this is my favorite cup to make a macchiatto in. It's a demitasse from Japan, 3.5 oz at the rim, and wide enough to pour art in without being latte uber meister.

Alas, I just finished an espresso and the cup shall have to wait for now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on December 21, 2009 at 4:55pm

Your picture won't load and now i'm dying of anticipation.

John P said:

As of now, this is my favorite cup to make a macchiatto in. It's a demitasse from Japan, 3.5 oz at the rim, and wide enough to pour art in without being latte uber meister.

Alas, I just finished an espresso and the cup shall have to wait for now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John P on December 21, 2009 at 5:48pm

HERE

Ricky Sutton said:

Your picture won't load and now i'm dying of anticipation.

John P said:

As of now, this is my favorite cup to make a macchiatto in. It's a demitasse from Japan, 3.5 oz at the rim, and wide enough to pour art in without being latte uber meister.

Alas, I just finished an espresso and the cup shall have to wait for now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on December 22, 2009 at 10:46am

Nice. I like that the saucer matches the inside of the cup.

John P said:

HERE

Ricky Sutton said:

Your picture won't load and now i'm dying of anticipation.

John P said:

As of now, this is my favorite cup to make a macchiatto in. It's a demitasse from Japan, 3.5 oz at the rim, and wide enough to pour art in without being latte uber meister.

Alas, I just finished an espresso and the cup shall have to wait for now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Matthew on March 28, 2011 at 6:46am

Did you order these?   If so how do you like them?

Thanks

Ricky Sutton said:

Great to know!

I'm going to order a bunch of these before they're replaced with the 2.25 oz.

Thanks for the tip!

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

I just got (not just ordered by received) a dozen Nero 3oz FAC macchiato demi's (stamped ACF on the bottom of the cups, identical from the ones I'd purchased previously from Great Infusions) from Vissons Espresso. I called and talked to them before ordering to confirm they were the correct size. And they are. Interestingly it's the only size FAC demi they carry.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on March 28, 2011 at 8:40pm

I did talk with someone from Visions and they confirmed the 3oz. capacity. I didn't ultimately order them though. I've used them in the past, and I still have a few around the house. I'm preferring a more tulip shaped macchiato cup these days. I'm currently using these from Vertex (though i do not love them); 

Matthew said:

Did you order these?   If so how do you like them?

Thanks

Ricky Sutton said:

Great to know!

I'm going to order a bunch of these before they're replaced with the 2.25 oz.

Thanks for the tip!

miKe mcKoffee aka Mike McGinness said:

I just got (not just ordered by received) a dozen Nero 3oz FAC macchiato demi's (stamped ACF on the bottom of the cups, identical from the ones I'd purchased previously from Great Infusions) from Vissons Espresso. I called and talked to them before ordering to confirm they were the correct size. And they are. Interestingly it's the only size FAC demi they carry.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel Williamson on March 28, 2011 at 8:55pm

A 16 ounce frappe IS a lesser drink than a macc, FWIW

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ricky Sutton on March 28, 2011 at 9:45pm

Perhaps you mean "IMHO" instead of "FWIW"? 

Daniel Williamson said:

A 16 ounce frappe IS a lesser drink than a macc, FWIW

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